Failure to Fire Tikka 223

[rugger7622]

I agree on the lot of LC brass, but i have year codes across 7 or 8 years of LC brass.

 

[rugger7622]

Also, every FTF has as a fully dented primer, just like fired brass. No indication of light strikes at all. I'm tempted to just buy more Starline or another brand and move on, but I can't explain why LC is giving me this issue.

The barrel groups so well, I don't really want to mess with it, but I can't seem to let this go!!!!

 

[DShortt]

Also, every FTF has as a fully dented primer, just like fired brass. No indication of light strikes at all. I'm tempted to just buy more Starline or another brand and move on, but I can't explain why LC is giving me this issue.

The barrel groups so well, I don't really want to mess with it, but I can't seem to let this go!!!!

I'd just use Starline brass in this rifle/barrel and be happy.

If the LC brass happens to work well with in a different rifle, then just go with the flow.

Don't introduce a third brand of brass and risk more potential problems.

 

[DShortt]

I agree on the lot of LC brass, but i have year codes across 7 or 8 years of LC brass.

Lot years don't really matter in this situation. I'd bet some of it got resized with a die that's causing the FTF problems. Or some of it was full-auto fired brass. Never know with stuff like that.

 

[wright brothers]

You said you sorted to .0005
Was this measured with primer in case?

Throwing a dart here,
we hate not being diagnosed lol.

 

[rugger7622]

Without the primer

 

[JB10]

I had this exact same issue when i built my 6x45. What i ended up doing was changing primers from cci450s to ANY other primer and never happened again. Once the brass had been fired in the rifle and neck sized only then no issue with the 450 primers. I thought i was doing something wrong when i was necking up the brass to make into 6x45. All the misfires had good primer strikes. I even took one of those rounds and changed primers and it shot. On the ftf brass i too found it set the shoulder back just from the impact of the fireing pin hitting the primer.

 

[rugger7622]

I had this exact same issue when i built my 6x45. What i ended up doing was changing primers from cci450s to ANY other primer and never happened again. Once the brass had been fired in the rifle and neck sized only then no issue with the 450 primers. I thought i was doing something wrong when i was necking up the brass to make into 6x45. All the misfires had good primer strikes. I even took one of those rounds and changed primers and it shot. On the ftf brass i too found it set the shoulder back just from the impact of the fireing pin hitting the primer.

I appreciate you letting me know this, last fall when I initially starting seeing this I did swap to some Win SRP primers hoping I might have run into a janky lot of 450’s. I did continue to have some FTF’s with the Win primers as well. I don’t mind putting the LC brass aside and using only Starline, just doesn’t make logical sense to me. I should point out that the brass used in today’s rounds has all been fired at least once in this gun and resized/shoulder bumped and measured same as the Starline

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Or all of the(LC) brass has too much bolt face clearance, the ones that fire, form to the chamber. You measure them against some number you use and "result" is zero "growth. The ones that don't fire compared to your presumed hs(bolt face clearance) " measurement " number are STILL short because they started short.

 

[JB10]

I appreciate you letting me know this, last fall when I initially starting seeing this I did swap to some Win SRP primers hoping I might have run into a janky lot of 450’s. I did continue to have some FTF’s with the Win primers as well. I don’t mind putting the LC brass aside and using only Starline, just doesn’t make logical sense to me. I should point out that the brass used in today’s rounds has all been fired at least once in this gun and resized/shoulder bumped and measured same as the Starline

Mine too was LC brass. I never tried another brand with this rifle. I have so much bulk 223 brass i built this rifle to use some it with something other than 223.

 

[DShortt]

Or all of the(LC) brass has too much bolt face clearance, the ones that fire, form to the chamber. You measure them against some number you use and "result" is zero "growth. The ones that don't fire compared to your presumed hs(bolt face clearance) " measurement " number are STILL short because they started short.

Very possible. Unfortunately, none of us are sitting beside the OP to observe and I think there is a detail or 2 missing.

 

[rugger7622]

I promise I hand sorted and mesured each piece of brass and none was short, not a single piece. I did the exact same process with Starline and have shot all those cases 3 x so 300. Same sizing die, same prep steps, etc. Starline was virgin, non-crimped when I started this journey

 

[dellet]

If you’re hitting a primer hard enough to set the shoulder back, and it doesn’t go off. Either it’s bad or not seated. Since it goes off on second hit, it’s not bad.

Measure the seated depth of the primers in the LC brass, and then again after one does not go off. Probably have your answer.

My guess is that the LC brass did not have the crimped pockets properly removed.

 

[ELR LVR]

I'm convinced you have at least some LC cases that are sized too much.

Measure 50 of them before priming and loading them. I bet some are short compared to the rest. In other words, the FTF cases were short before you chambered them and attempted to fire them.

This sounds right ^^^^^^^
Too much headspace in other words on your FTF brass
---
I cannot see it possible for a firing pin to set back a shoulder
when trying to close a bolt down on brass that is even .001 over headspace is almost impossible with the lug cams. (firing pin springs are usually in the 30 pound range)
---
I am leaning more toward
Your firing pin springs is TOO WEAK
to fire the shorter headspaced brass and is simply banging the case forward in the chamber while still making a dent in the primer cup
in other words
the case moving forward in the chamber is absorbing the impact of the firing pin, not allowing it to set the primer off.
---
Try neck sizing only----brass ALREADY fired in this chamber --- so you dont touch your headspace
or even partial neck size (halfway down the neck) brass fired in this chamber with your FL sizing die
then see if you get any FTF with that brass since it should be fireformed to your chamber length.
--- The only way to have near zero .000 headspace, is to use brass fireformed in your chamber.
Sometimes needing to be fired twice to fill in all the volume
---
If you get no FTF with this method, it is EXCESSIVE headspace causing the FTF issue.
What you are likely seeing, is the FTF rounds have excessive headspace to begin with....
too much to allow proper primer ignition and you are interpreting this as the firing pin is sizing the brass down using your chamber as a FL sizing die
I don't see that happening
---A = Bump the shoulder less (new brass will likely have too much headspace until fireformed)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may also not be seating your primers until the cups are all the way bottomed out against the primer pocket
in which case, the firing pin, seats the primer further, but does not go off because it needs to be seated for the opposite side to push back against the anvil, if it is not seated all the way it is hard to achieve consistent ignition.
IE: you may be just smooshing the cup with the firing pin and seating it barely enough further for the second strike to actually THEN set it off once it is bottomed out further in the pocket.
-------
(You aint using a Lee hand priming tool are ya? if so, Get an RCBS, it has more leverage, enough to actually squash a primer flat if it enters into the primer pocket sideways without breaking the priming tool
A lee will often not seat a primer until crush even though you may be feeling much resistance, but this is a false sense of resistance reading.

 

[rugger7622]

This sounds right ^^^^^^^
Too much headspace in other words on your FTF brass

I measured all 30 pieces of this brass and there was less than .001 between the 30.

---
I cannot see it possible for a firing pin to set back a shoulder
when trying to close a bolt down on brass that is even .001 over headspace is almost impossible with the lug cams. (firing pin springs are usually in the 30 pound range)

I would not expect it either but I've now seen it on 25 or so FTF pieces of brass over the past year. On all brass that fires, there is essentially 0 shoulder set back. I don't see shoulder growth on this barrel like my other barrels.

---
I am leaning more toward
Your firing pin springs is TOO WEAK
to fire the shorter headspaced brass and is simply banging the case forward in the chamber while still making a dent in the primer cup
in other words
the case moving forward in the chamber is absorbing the impact of the firing pin, not allowing it to set the primer off.

I thought that as well and changed firing pins from a 22 creedmoor tikka and had the same results.

---
Try neck sizing only----brass ALREADY fired in this chamber --- so you dont touch your headspace
or even partial neck size (halfway down the neck) brass fired in this chamber with your FL sizing die
then see if you get any FTF with that brass since it should be fireformed to your chamber length.
--- The only way to have near zero .000 headspace, is to use brass fireformed in your chamber.
Sometimes needing to be fired twice to fill in all the volume

When I first started having this issue, I moved to a lee collet die and shot this brass 3 times, measuring should bump after each time and only neck sized during this process and still got the FTF.

---
If you get no FTF with this method, it is EXCESSIVE headspace causing the FTF issue.
What you are likely seeing, is the FTF rounds have excessive headspace to begin with....
too much to allow proper primer ignition and you are interpreting this as the firing pin is sizing the brass down using your chamber as a FL sizing die
I don't see that happening
---A = Bump the shoulder less (new brass will likely have too much headspace until fireformed)

I suspected this could be happening, but from measurements before shooting, I'm confident all the brass was as identical as I can get it. With the whidden chamber gauge, my brass is essentially Saami .0. Factory brass I've measured with this gauge is between -.006 and +.003. No FTF with factory brass. I've confirmed I get the same measurements with a comparator. I even thought maybe the Whidden gauge was off - it's not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may also not be seating your primers until the cups are all the way bottomed out against the primer pocket
in which case, the firing pin, seats the primer further, but does not go off because it needs to be seated for the opposite side to push back against the anvil, if it is not seated all the way it is hard to achieve consistent ignition.
IE: you may be just smooshing the cup with the firing pin and seating it barely enough further for the second strike to actually THEN set it off once it is bottomed out further in the pocket.

I've measured many and the average primer pocket depth of the LC brass, and it's pretty consistent, at .119-.120, primer cup depth on a CCI450 is .113, so I've been crushing to .006-.007. Earlier with this issue, I suspected this could be an issue and was only seating flush to case bottom, I fixed this a couple of firings earlier.

-------
(You aint using a Lee hand priming tool are ya? if so, Get an RCBS, it has more leverage, enough to actually squash a primer flat if it enters into the primer pocket sideways without breaking the priming tool
A lee will often not seat a primer until crush even though you may be feeling much resistance, but this is a false sense of resistance reading.

I'm using an adjustable FA hand primer and I'm measuring every primer to ensure it's set to a minimum of .006 crush, which should put the primer at the bottom of the primer pocket.

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

[K22]

It's time to turn Mother's Picture to the wall and dump the LC brass and get on with shooting and enjoying your rifle.

My understanding is that LC brass is once fired. If that is the case, then this is another example of not starting with virgin brass and dedicating them to one rifle and rotating use to equalize firings and sizing. This is the best way in my experience to avoid brass problems.

In the old days when I encountered brass problems in bottle neck rifle cartridges, it was always with range brass or brass given to me by non-reloaders shooting factory ammo. Long ago I decided to always starts with virgin case. If you are careful with your sizing you can obtain good value over time getting many reloads out of them. Why borrow trouble?

 

[M-61]

hs(bolt face clearance

“Bolt face clearance” is not a term
HEADSPACE is
Closed bolt face to datum line.= headspace
The datum line is not a visible line. Rather a point at which a “place” on the case’s shoulder touches the shoulder angle reamed in the chamber.

 

[Homerange]

My 2c worth on this......

Son has a Tikka 243 that gave FTF issues with any load shortly after getting it...reloads or factory loads.
We thought it was a firing pin spring issue as some strikes were marginally lighter than others.
We sent it back to the importers gunsmith to diagnose as it was a new rifle with under 50 rnds down the tube.

When they tried to bill us for stripping and cleaning the bolt we told them where to go !

One can only imagine the lube Tikka used at assembly was the issue.......but to attempt to charge us for cleaning out whatever that muck was is a bit on the nose.


In the OP's case there might be some buildup inside the bolt preventing full travel of the firing pin causing the FTF.
Go fishing inside the bolt with a long screwdriver to see if you can find any hardened residues that might limit firing pin travel......hopefully it's something as simple as this but easily overlooked.

 

[rugger7622]

My 2c worth on this......

Son has a Tikka 243 that gave FTF issues with any load shortly after getting it...reloads or factory loads.
We thought it was a firing pin spring issue as some strikes were marginally lighter than others.
We sent it back to the importers gunsmith to diagnose as it was a new rifle with under 50 rnds down the tube.

When they tried to bill us for stripping and cleaning the bolt we told them where to go !

One can only imagine the lube Tikka used at assembly was the issue.......but to attempt to charge us for cleaning out whatever that muck was is a bit on the nose.


In the OP's case there might be some buildup inside the bolt preventing full travel of the firing pin causing the FTF.
Go fishing inside the bolt with a long screwdriver to see if you can find any hardened residues that might limit firing pin travel......hopefully it's something as simple as this but easily overlooked.

I did that early on in the process, I cleaned off all the lube inside the bolt as well as under the spring assembly and put a small drop back on and rubbed that one drop in everywhere.

I appreciate the insight, I'll probably just buy another 100 of starline brass but mechanically doesn't make any sense to me.

Thanks everyone.

 

[timeout]

IME the only time I had misfires that fired on the second try was when my Lee hand held primer seater had worn to the point that it wasn't fully seating the primers. Bought myself a 21st Century hand held seater and never had that problem again.