I also have 1 tikka 223 that is firm to close on a go gauge. It has several hundred rounds of factory and reloads with no problems. Just pmc ammo was a little hard to close. I have 2 other tikka 223 and they dont have the short headspace.
Failure to Fire Tikka 223
- Thread starter rugger7622
- Start date
Interesting thread.. I've had the exact same problem.
Tikka T3x Varmint with LC brass and CCI 450 primers.
I've gone through the same process to trouble shoot that the OP has. I measure head to datum distance on a dozen pieces of brass, I know they're within 3 thou of the maximum that I can use in this rifle.
I mark that measurement on each case. Go to the range, come back with 2 that won't fire at all in this rifle. I re-check the head to datum measurement on those 2 cases when I get home, and it IS definitely shorter than when they were initially loaded..
I check firing pin protrusion, right at 55 thou from the bolt face. I take the bolt apart, clean it thoroughly, lube it with either G96 gun treatment spray or even with lighter fluid. No change. Firing pin spring is good, it's given me no problems with any other case and primer combination, or with 450's in any other case for that matter.
I use an RCBS hand primer, after removing the primer pocket crimp with a Lyman cutting tool, not swaging it, and then using a Lyman uniformer tool. The primers go in fairly easily, and they're definitely seated.
So, LC brass. Looking carefully at the cases, I can see that the shoulder is not well defined, does not come to a sharp corner where it transitions into the body of the case.
I anneal all my brass. The only thing I can think of is that the brass is slightly "domed" in the shoulder area, and the extra force required to ignite the harder 450 primer is pushing that "dome" backwards into a straight line before the primer ignites. If the brass wasn't annealed, it might not be a problem, either.
It's a bizarre situation. If you'd told me that the firing pin can dent the primer without setting it off, enough to push the shoulder back, I'd say you should seek professional help.
The other common factor is the Tikka. Maybe their firing pin springs are on the weak side of what they should be.
In any case, I saw the title of this thread, read it, and said, "Well, I'll be damned.. it's not just me!"
My solution was to not use the LC brass, I only had less than a hundred of them anyway.
Lapua, Federal, PMC, IVI, everything else works fine in this rifle. Just not LC. It's too bad, it's good quality brass. Certainly better than Federal or PMC.
Tikka T3x Varmint with LC brass and CCI 450 primers.
I've gone through the same process to trouble shoot that the OP has. I measure head to datum distance on a dozen pieces of brass, I know they're within 3 thou of the maximum that I can use in this rifle.
I mark that measurement on each case. Go to the range, come back with 2 that won't fire at all in this rifle. I re-check the head to datum measurement on those 2 cases when I get home, and it IS definitely shorter than when they were initially loaded..
I check firing pin protrusion, right at 55 thou from the bolt face. I take the bolt apart, clean it thoroughly, lube it with either G96 gun treatment spray or even with lighter fluid. No change. Firing pin spring is good, it's given me no problems with any other case and primer combination, or with 450's in any other case for that matter.
I use an RCBS hand primer, after removing the primer pocket crimp with a Lyman cutting tool, not swaging it, and then using a Lyman uniformer tool. The primers go in fairly easily, and they're definitely seated.
So, LC brass. Looking carefully at the cases, I can see that the shoulder is not well defined, does not come to a sharp corner where it transitions into the body of the case.
I anneal all my brass. The only thing I can think of is that the brass is slightly "domed" in the shoulder area, and the extra force required to ignite the harder 450 primer is pushing that "dome" backwards into a straight line before the primer ignites. If the brass wasn't annealed, it might not be a problem, either.
It's a bizarre situation. If you'd told me that the firing pin can dent the primer without setting it off, enough to push the shoulder back, I'd say you should seek professional help.
The other common factor is the Tikka. Maybe their firing pin springs are on the weak side of what they should be.
In any case, I saw the title of this thread, read it, and said, "Well, I'll be damned.. it's not just me!"
My solution was to not use the LC brass, I only had less than a hundred of them anyway.
Lapua, Federal, PMC, IVI, everything else works fine in this rifle. Just not LC. It's too bad, it's good quality brass. Certainly better than Federal or PMC.
rugger7622
Silver $$ Contributor
I don’t know, nor have I ever seen it and there are at least two more people on this thread that has seen it.
Buttstock-TX
Silver $$ Contributor
I have a Tikka T3X Superlight on the way now and hope to pick it up next week. I'm planning to use the large amount of LC brass that I have on hand to load for it. I'm glad this was posted in case I run into similar issues. I am also very happy to hear of the accuracy you are getting with 77's.
What you are seeing reminds me of when I had a batch of new undersized PRVI brass for a 9.3x62 chamber. Most rounds would fire with one primer strike, but about 3 in 10 did not. Most of the "did nots" eventually did with two or three strikes. I seem to recall I did have one of those 3rd strikes pierce upon firing though...
Once the brass was fired, all was well from then on.
What you are seeing reminds me of when I had a batch of new undersized PRVI brass for a 9.3x62 chamber. Most rounds would fire with one primer strike, but about 3 in 10 did not. Most of the "did nots" eventually did with two or three strikes. I seem to recall I did have one of those 3rd strikes pierce upon firing though...
Once the brass was fired, all was well from then on.
Do we know if the brass is over annealed? Smells like the brass is sized short and we might be moving the radius at the shoulder neck junction. It does feel like something is a little off. Starline doesn't typically size the same as other brass.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
OP...this thread has reached four pages in length and you still have not satisfactorily answered the question of the .007" change in dimension for the readers. Multiple people that are trying to help you keep asking the same question and you are not providing the requested information in a way that is easily understood. Please read carefully and answer each of the questions below by number, so everyone can understand what your issue is, and thus may be able to provide you with better feedback:
1) Does the .007" dimension refer to a cartridge base-to shoulder (CBTS) measurement? (Y/N)
2) If the answer to question 1) was "No", then exactly what specific measurement is changing by .007"?
3) How do the CBTS measurements compare between a case that fired correctly the first time, and one that failed to fire with the first primer strike, but that has NOT been re-fired/set off yet?
(In other words, does the .007" dimensional change occur ONLY after the case actually fires once it has been struck again by the firing pin, OR did it happen after the first FTF, but before the case actually fired (i.e. due to the failed primer strike)?)
4) Is the .007" dimensional difference observed only in cases that have actually been fired, or one that fired correctly on the first primer stirke and one that did not fire on the first primer strike, but fired after one or more additional primer strikes?
(This is really just further elaboration on the topic of Question 3)
5) What are the specific values for CBTS of both your LC brass (unfired, fired, FTF but un-fired, and FTF but re-fired) and Starline (fired and unfired)?
6) How do your CBTS values compare to the range listed by SAAMI?
(see attached file below for .223 Rem SAAMI specs, red arrows denote the dimension range of interest for both cartridge (top) and chamber (bottom)>>>it may be possible to diagnose your issue simply by the CBTS measurement values alone)
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's a simple exercise that may provide additional information about exactly when the dimensional change is occuring, and why:
Measure BOTH the cartridge base-to-shoulder dimension and primer pocket depth for a sufficient number of pieces of your LC brass that when loaded, you are sure to get a few FTFs on the first trigger pull. Mark them with a Sharpie so you can keep track of the correct numbering/order. Load them identically. Fire each case. Measure CBTS for cases that actually fire on the first primer strike. Also measure the CBTS for any FTFs BEFORE trying to fire them again. Finally, measure CBTS again for any first-strike FTFs AFTER additional primers strike(s) cause them to fire.
My guesses are that your LC brass is short at the shoulder (CBTS), and/or may have overly deep primer pockets. The case might be moving forward after the firing pin strikes the primer, because it is undersized (CBTS). Because the case has room to move, the weakened strike isn't sufficient to ignite the primer, even though it may leave a readily visible mark, even one that appears failry normal. If the primer pocket is too deep, a weak firing pin strike can also result. If you have both together, it can really cause poor and unreliable ignition. These two types of issues may also be exacerbated by using CCI 450s, which have a very thick and strong cup.
Potential solutions might be:
A) Do whatever you have to do to allow the LC brass to grow at the shoulder to fit the chamber, assuming it actually does have some short pieces (i.e. adjust your sizing die so that it doesn't bump the shoulder at all).
B) Test a different batch of brass that is not undersized and has the correct depth primer pockets.
C) Test a primer with a softer cup (such as CCI 400s) in the LC brass, using FTFs as the readout.
D) Seat the bullet .007" to .010" into the lands to minimize forward case movement following primer strike. Be careful doing this, you may want to drop the charghe weight a couple or three tenths of a grain before seating bullets into the lands).
Summary - brass/chambering problems such as this can sometimes be absolutely maddening to solve. However, taking systematic and rigorous measurements, as well as meticulous record keeping may help in solving the issue. Along this line of thought, it is also possible you have been grossly over-sizing your brass, but I can't really tell with certainty yet from what you wrote previously. In my hands, .223 Rem brass often grows as much as .008" to .009" at the shoulder on the very first firing in chambers that are within SAAMI specs. IMO, most brands of .223 Rem brass comes out of the box (virgin) *relatively short* (CBTS dimension), as compared with some other cartridges I reload. As long as the shoulder is only bumped back .001" to .002" or so after each subsequent firing during the rest of its life, it will be fine. If it is sized back to its original (virgin) CBTS for as few as three firings, it may undergo casehead separation, which is very bad news. Do not size brass back to its original (box/virgin) CBTS, if doing so means more than a couple thousandths shoulder bump. In fact, as long as it readily chambers after firing, it is unecessary to bump the shoulder at all while it grows. Seating bullets into the lands can sometimes help relatively short brass grow (CBTS), as it will help minimize forward movement of the case following the firing pin strike. However, it is not always possible to reach the lands with shorter bullets, so that may not be an approach that works in every instance. Regardless, the .223 Rem is well-known for difficulties with achieving reliable and consistent ignition, and thus typically shows larger ES/SD velocity stats than some larger cartridges. There are various reasons for this that may include the small case volume, the flashhole diameter, and the relatively short CBTS length out of the box. But the first step to fixing the problem is to understand exactly what is causing it, and obtaining some solid measurements may help with that.
1) Does the .007" dimension refer to a cartridge base-to shoulder (CBTS) measurement? (Y/N)
2) If the answer to question 1) was "No", then exactly what specific measurement is changing by .007"?
3) How do the CBTS measurements compare between a case that fired correctly the first time, and one that failed to fire with the first primer strike, but that has NOT been re-fired/set off yet?
(In other words, does the .007" dimensional change occur ONLY after the case actually fires once it has been struck again by the firing pin, OR did it happen after the first FTF, but before the case actually fired (i.e. due to the failed primer strike)?)
4) Is the .007" dimensional difference observed only in cases that have actually been fired, or one that fired correctly on the first primer stirke and one that did not fire on the first primer strike, but fired after one or more additional primer strikes?
(This is really just further elaboration on the topic of Question 3)
5) What are the specific values for CBTS of both your LC brass (unfired, fired, FTF but un-fired, and FTF but re-fired) and Starline (fired and unfired)?
6) How do your CBTS values compare to the range listed by SAAMI?
(see attached file below for .223 Rem SAAMI specs, red arrows denote the dimension range of interest for both cartridge (top) and chamber (bottom)>>>it may be possible to diagnose your issue simply by the CBTS measurement values alone)
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's a simple exercise that may provide additional information about exactly when the dimensional change is occuring, and why:
Measure BOTH the cartridge base-to-shoulder dimension and primer pocket depth for a sufficient number of pieces of your LC brass that when loaded, you are sure to get a few FTFs on the first trigger pull. Mark them with a Sharpie so you can keep track of the correct numbering/order. Load them identically. Fire each case. Measure CBTS for cases that actually fire on the first primer strike. Also measure the CBTS for any FTFs BEFORE trying to fire them again. Finally, measure CBTS again for any first-strike FTFs AFTER additional primers strike(s) cause them to fire.
My guesses are that your LC brass is short at the shoulder (CBTS), and/or may have overly deep primer pockets. The case might be moving forward after the firing pin strikes the primer, because it is undersized (CBTS). Because the case has room to move, the weakened strike isn't sufficient to ignite the primer, even though it may leave a readily visible mark, even one that appears failry normal. If the primer pocket is too deep, a weak firing pin strike can also result. If you have both together, it can really cause poor and unreliable ignition. These two types of issues may also be exacerbated by using CCI 450s, which have a very thick and strong cup.
Potential solutions might be:
A) Do whatever you have to do to allow the LC brass to grow at the shoulder to fit the chamber, assuming it actually does have some short pieces (i.e. adjust your sizing die so that it doesn't bump the shoulder at all).
B) Test a different batch of brass that is not undersized and has the correct depth primer pockets.
C) Test a primer with a softer cup (such as CCI 400s) in the LC brass, using FTFs as the readout.
D) Seat the bullet .007" to .010" into the lands to minimize forward case movement following primer strike. Be careful doing this, you may want to drop the charghe weight a couple or three tenths of a grain before seating bullets into the lands).
Summary - brass/chambering problems such as this can sometimes be absolutely maddening to solve. However, taking systematic and rigorous measurements, as well as meticulous record keeping may help in solving the issue. Along this line of thought, it is also possible you have been grossly over-sizing your brass, but I can't really tell with certainty yet from what you wrote previously. In my hands, .223 Rem brass often grows as much as .008" to .009" at the shoulder on the very first firing in chambers that are within SAAMI specs. IMO, most brands of .223 Rem brass comes out of the box (virgin) *relatively short* (CBTS dimension), as compared with some other cartridges I reload. As long as the shoulder is only bumped back .001" to .002" or so after each subsequent firing during the rest of its life, it will be fine. If it is sized back to its original (virgin) CBTS for as few as three firings, it may undergo casehead separation, which is very bad news. Do not size brass back to its original (box/virgin) CBTS, if doing so means more than a couple thousandths shoulder bump. In fact, as long as it readily chambers after firing, it is unecessary to bump the shoulder at all while it grows. Seating bullets into the lands can sometimes help relatively short brass grow (CBTS), as it will help minimize forward movement of the case following the firing pin strike. However, it is not always possible to reach the lands with shorter bullets, so that may not be an approach that works in every instance. Regardless, the .223 Rem is well-known for difficulties with achieving reliable and consistent ignition, and thus typically shows larger ES/SD velocity stats than some larger cartridges. There are various reasons for this that may include the small case volume, the flashhole diameter, and the relatively short CBTS length out of the box. But the first step to fixing the problem is to understand exactly what is causing it, and obtaining some solid measurements may help with that.
Last edited:
rugger7622
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes,
All my resized brass shoulders are within .005 of each other when loaded, checked by a whidden gauge as well as a comparator. On the whidden gauge my resized brass, all of it, is within .005 of Sammi 0. I load the brass, shoot the brass, I have 2 FTF, I recock, those two fire, when I get home I remeasure those two pieces and the shoulders now measure -.007. My other 28 pieces of fired brass measure essentially the same as when I started
I don't have that measurement. I've always tried twice to fire a FTF.
I don't have this measurement.
Only FTF cases, all other show essential no shoulder growth - even after 3 firings
Nosler Factory Unfired = 1.4595
Nosler Fired = 1.4560
LC Sized = 1.4590
LC Fired = 1.4580, 1.4590, 1.4590, 1.4580: Avg = 1.4585
LC FTF = 1.4555, 1.4510: Avg = 1.4533
Starline Sized = 1.4585, 1.4575, 1.4575: Avg = 1.4578
Starline Fired = 1.4595, 1.4600, 1.4585: Avg = 1.4593
Starline Unfired = I don't have any to measure, but I have 100 coming this week.
I can try that for my next outing. All my resized matches what's above.
I see this logic, but my LC brass is sized right at Saami zero and pretty close to my Nosler factory load. I did try Win SRP and had a couple failures as well. I have some Federal Match I could try.
This current 3 firings has not been sized, just neck sized.
I've got another 100 SL ordered as well as 100 pieces of Lapua
I did try Win SRP, but will load up 20 with Federal, for my next outing
I really appreciate your detailed response and suggestions.
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