F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.
- Thread starter scaxeman
- Start date
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Obtunded said:
Great, then we could bring back the Helen Keller targets for F-class. I have shot many matches where a 9 was my worst score, this change would thus allow me to have cleans at 1000 yards with a high number of Xs, something that has yet to be achieved anywhere.
The law of unintended consequences.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
scaxeman said:
International Level shooter, I didn't go shoots 1's in Ireland to be called "National Level" shooter! ;D
When I started I shot my first F-Open match with a 300 Win. Mag. using a mix of Winchester and Norma brass (did not work too good by the way), from a bipod and a rear bag. I didn't even remove the sling stud from the rear. Was I conpetitive? No I was not, but it gave me a goal to follow, and 3 years later, here I am, I'm by no means dominating the sport (I don't think anyone is), but I'm doing much better than I ever hoped to. I took my fair share of beatings from the "good" guys with "better" equipment, but I never blamed it on equipment, I just stuck it out and I knew if I wanted to be competitive I would have to do things better, and that included investing on better equipment, as well as time on the range and on the reloading room.
By the way, we have a 33 caliber limit in F-Open, how many top level shooters have you seen shooting 300 grain bullets? Even 200 grain bullets are uncommon in F-Open. Why? Because "At some point the shooter becomes the limiting factor in accuracy!". The heavies are not for everyone, but if you can handle them, then have at it.
If you really wanted to cater to new shooters, then quit making them shoot against "Masters" in "Master/Unclassified" class.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Erik Cortina said:
Actually that's one of the things a match director can do to help new shooters. When someone shows up to shoot at LR for the first time at the club, I have placed them in Marksman class instead of Master/Unclassified when I determine that is the proper thing to do.
Certainly an interesting thread. My highest F-TR scores, 600-36X and 200-15X (agg and single stage) at 500 yards were shot with Sierra 180's. My highest 1000 yard score 199-11X was with Berger 185's. I'm perfectly happy to shoot mid-weight bullets against someone else's 230, in fact, I welcome the opportunity.
New shooters are new shooters, if you build rules so they can be competitive, you're fooling yourself and them. A new shooter is there to learn what to do and how to do it, winning isn't going to happen for a long time. We need them, and we've all been new shooters, but let's be realistic, new competitors don't win in any sport - they're new!
Generally speaking restrictions raise costs. Rifle weight restrictions lead to exotic materials (e.g. titanium actions) bullet weight restrictions lead to more use of expensive high-BC bullets, necessary aftermarket (long) barrels, and frankly excessive pressure (thus more danger to the shooter, especially the new/inexperienced reloader).
F-TR is a lot of fun, I really enjoy it and don't see any need for change. The .308 cartridge itself creates a reasonably level field where new shooters can think they have a chance (they don't) and where experienced competitors can fight it out on skill while still exercising some creativity.
New shooters are new shooters, if you build rules so they can be competitive, you're fooling yourself and them. A new shooter is there to learn what to do and how to do it, winning isn't going to happen for a long time. We need them, and we've all been new shooters, but let's be realistic, new competitors don't win in any sport - they're new!
Generally speaking restrictions raise costs. Rifle weight restrictions lead to exotic materials (e.g. titanium actions) bullet weight restrictions lead to more use of expensive high-BC bullets, necessary aftermarket (long) barrels, and frankly excessive pressure (thus more danger to the shooter, especially the new/inexperienced reloader).
F-TR is a lot of fun, I really enjoy it and don't see any need for change. The .308 cartridge itself creates a reasonably level field where new shooters can think they have a chance (they don't) and where experienced competitors can fight it out on skill while still exercising some creativity.
[br]German Salazar said:
Wise words from my favorite lawyer.
If you truly want a level playing field, then make everyone shoot the same bullet from rifles of same specification. Everyone shoots the same thing. If you aren't going to go all the way, then why bother to limit just one or a few areas? People will just find other areas to gain advantages in that are even more costly.
Limiting what people can use also prevents a lot of people from coming out and shooting what they got...
Limiting what people can use also prevents a lot of people from coming out and shooting what they got...
Like many others, I'm opposed to injecting restrictions. So far, I've seen no evidence that the use of the 215 or 230gn Hybrid provides any competitive benefit over other bullet weights, and Like German S. personally reckon the best of the mid weight (180-190gn) bullets provide the best overall performance in all conditions.
So far as the good old 155gn class is concerned, we've seen a pulling back from 'heavies' in the UK with a return by some but not all national league shooters to the 155gn numbers. Far from being disadvantaged, users are continuing to do well with them. Reigning F/TR world champion Russell Simmonds set a new GB 1,000yd F/TR 20-shot record at Diggle last Sunday of 99.7V in the final match of GB FCA league Round 3. That's 199.7x in US scoring-speak and remember we don't string shoot so that score was obtained over a 35-40 minute period with two competitors shooting alternately. I was Russell's partner and his one point dropped was a marginal 'leaker', so that was 20 shots in a 10.5-11" group. Russell loads the 155.5gn Berger BT over H4895. His rifle, while very well built is not a super-expensive job either comprising the Rem 700 SA profile Barnard 'S' action, True-Flite barrel, and Choate Ultimate Sniper stock.
See
]http://www.accurateshooter.com/stocks/choate-tactical-stock-for-short-action-rems/]
Russell not only beat the heavy bullet users in this match but all Open shooters too, class and round overall winner David Kent scoring 98.8v with his 7mm/300 WSM!
Re Monte's playing devil's advocate on limiting 0.224" bullets in .223 Rem to <81gn, the better 80s only just match the g7 BCs of the less efficient 0.308" 155s, and as .308 Win will always provide as high an MV with this bullet weight as you can get with .223/80, more often higher, the 'Mouse Gun' would be consigned to being permanently uncompetitive at 1,000yd even if .308W were limited to <156gn. It would still offer benefits at shorter ranges, but I'd say 90s are essential for 900yd and up.
I get rather brassed off with the 'Arms Race' argument from those who won't try F/TR whose excuse is you need £5,000 of kit to compete. So .... putting my money where my mouth is, I'm working with three approaches to 'The Affordable F/TR Rifle' concept with the typical club shooter who rarely if ever competes at distances beyond 600yd in mind. The three approaches / rifles are:
A Savage 12 LRPV that was originally .204 Ruger cal rebarrelled with a 26" Bartlein 1-7.5" twist Light Palma profile barrel and throated to work with 80gn VLDs plus the 90gn Berger BT. This will work with equivalent Remington PSS / VS etc rifles too of course.
A secondhand .308 Win Howa 1500 'Varmint' with its OEM 24" 1-12" factory semi-heavy barrel,
The 'Farquarson approach' (founder of F/TR). A 20yr old .308W Paramount Target/Fullbore/Palma rifle with a good 30" 1-13" twist medium Palma barrel bought secondhand for £700 and then fitted up with bi-pod and scope. True-Flite Barrels has generously agreed to sponsor this particular project with a 30" Heavy Palma profile 1-10" twist barrel to allow mid and heavy weight bullets to be used at a later stage.
The budget is a maximum of £1,500 ($2,355 US) for everything bar ammunition / handloading components for each individual rifle - that sum to include an allowance for a mat and rear bag too. Remember we import almost everything gun related here and usually pay more than US shooters for barrels, scopes etc. Anything bought new (but not secondhand) also incurs an iniquitous sales tax called VAT that adds 20% to the price of everything. YES 20% !!
The Howa 1500 part which is up and running and had its first load development session yesterday which just about gave 0.5-MOA results with the 175gn Berger Tactical OTM has cost well under budget:
Rifle which came with 20MOA rail and Ken Farrell 30mm mounts - £600
Fox Firearms 8-32X50 target scope - £105
Versa-Pod locking bi-pod (already owned, but around £100 if bought new)
Mat / bag - £150
So, we're in business for around £950 or just under $1,500 US. To give my American friends a handle on how that works out in the UK shooting costs scene, the list price for a new .308 Win Remington 700 PSS is £1,240 including VAT ($1,950 US) and you're hard put to get more than £100 discount anywhere off that. So, I'm looking to get a rifle plus optics, bi-pod, mat and rear-bag for not much more than the price of a new Remy HBAR rifle in Brit money.
The other two cost more, but will still come in under budget. The savage 223 (also up and running and had its first match) and Howa 308 will be used in club competitions to 600yd, maybe 800. The Paramount will be used to 1,000yd if it performs as well as expected and may be tried in a national league round too if good enough. The Savage and Howa both use Versa-Pod tactical pan / tilt but conventional folding bi-pods. The Paramount will have an 'F/TR bi-pod', an Osprey Rifles Fito 'Big-Foot' bought secondhand for £100 (c. $157 US) a modest but useful saving over the new price of £140 ($220 US) which is only a little above that of a swivel Harris in the UK as it happens.
These projects are being covered in the free online magazine
http://www.targetshooteronline.com/
The outline and savage LRPV project covered in the May and June (current) issues, the Howa 1500 in the upcoming July issue.
So far as the good old 155gn class is concerned, we've seen a pulling back from 'heavies' in the UK with a return by some but not all national league shooters to the 155gn numbers. Far from being disadvantaged, users are continuing to do well with them. Reigning F/TR world champion Russell Simmonds set a new GB 1,000yd F/TR 20-shot record at Diggle last Sunday of 99.7V in the final match of GB FCA league Round 3. That's 199.7x in US scoring-speak and remember we don't string shoot so that score was obtained over a 35-40 minute period with two competitors shooting alternately. I was Russell's partner and his one point dropped was a marginal 'leaker', so that was 20 shots in a 10.5-11" group. Russell loads the 155.5gn Berger BT over H4895. His rifle, while very well built is not a super-expensive job either comprising the Rem 700 SA profile Barnard 'S' action, True-Flite barrel, and Choate Ultimate Sniper stock.
See
]http://www.accurateshooter.com/stocks/choate-tactical-stock-for-short-action-rems/]
Russell not only beat the heavy bullet users in this match but all Open shooters too, class and round overall winner David Kent scoring 98.8v with his 7mm/300 WSM!
Re Monte's playing devil's advocate on limiting 0.224" bullets in .223 Rem to <81gn, the better 80s only just match the g7 BCs of the less efficient 0.308" 155s, and as .308 Win will always provide as high an MV with this bullet weight as you can get with .223/80, more often higher, the 'Mouse Gun' would be consigned to being permanently uncompetitive at 1,000yd even if .308W were limited to <156gn. It would still offer benefits at shorter ranges, but I'd say 90s are essential for 900yd and up.
I get rather brassed off with the 'Arms Race' argument from those who won't try F/TR whose excuse is you need £5,000 of kit to compete. So .... putting my money where my mouth is, I'm working with three approaches to 'The Affordable F/TR Rifle' concept with the typical club shooter who rarely if ever competes at distances beyond 600yd in mind. The three approaches / rifles are:
A Savage 12 LRPV that was originally .204 Ruger cal rebarrelled with a 26" Bartlein 1-7.5" twist Light Palma profile barrel and throated to work with 80gn VLDs plus the 90gn Berger BT. This will work with equivalent Remington PSS / VS etc rifles too of course.
A secondhand .308 Win Howa 1500 'Varmint' with its OEM 24" 1-12" factory semi-heavy barrel,
The 'Farquarson approach' (founder of F/TR). A 20yr old .308W Paramount Target/Fullbore/Palma rifle with a good 30" 1-13" twist medium Palma barrel bought secondhand for £700 and then fitted up with bi-pod and scope. True-Flite Barrels has generously agreed to sponsor this particular project with a 30" Heavy Palma profile 1-10" twist barrel to allow mid and heavy weight bullets to be used at a later stage.
The budget is a maximum of £1,500 ($2,355 US) for everything bar ammunition / handloading components for each individual rifle - that sum to include an allowance for a mat and rear bag too. Remember we import almost everything gun related here and usually pay more than US shooters for barrels, scopes etc. Anything bought new (but not secondhand) also incurs an iniquitous sales tax called VAT that adds 20% to the price of everything. YES 20% !!
The Howa 1500 part which is up and running and had its first load development session yesterday which just about gave 0.5-MOA results with the 175gn Berger Tactical OTM has cost well under budget:
Rifle which came with 20MOA rail and Ken Farrell 30mm mounts - £600
Fox Firearms 8-32X50 target scope - £105
Versa-Pod locking bi-pod (already owned, but around £100 if bought new)
Mat / bag - £150
So, we're in business for around £950 or just under $1,500 US. To give my American friends a handle on how that works out in the UK shooting costs scene, the list price for a new .308 Win Remington 700 PSS is £1,240 including VAT ($1,950 US) and you're hard put to get more than £100 discount anywhere off that. So, I'm looking to get a rifle plus optics, bi-pod, mat and rear-bag for not much more than the price of a new Remy HBAR rifle in Brit money.
The other two cost more, but will still come in under budget. The savage 223 (also up and running and had its first match) and Howa 308 will be used in club competitions to 600yd, maybe 800. The Paramount will be used to 1,000yd if it performs as well as expected and may be tried in a national league round too if good enough. The Savage and Howa both use Versa-Pod tactical pan / tilt but conventional folding bi-pods. The Paramount will have an 'F/TR bi-pod', an Osprey Rifles Fito 'Big-Foot' bought secondhand for £100 (c. $157 US) a modest but useful saving over the new price of £140 ($220 US) which is only a little above that of a swivel Harris in the UK as it happens.
These projects are being covered in the free online magazine
http://www.targetshooteronline.com/
The outline and savage LRPV project covered in the May and June (current) issues, the Howa 1500 in the upcoming July issue.
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
I have read this discussion with great interest. I have shot F-class in F-TR and Open class for 6 years now. I am pleased that this discussion has remained respectful. I have never shot any F-TR load with a bullet heavier than 190, but if it works, I am not opposed to trying something heavier.
I have never shot International F-TR, but like Palma, aren't the bullets restricted to less than 156 grains for .308 caliber and 91 grains for .223? If I am correct, wouldn't a simple solution to the issue Darrell stated this discussion with is for match directors to offer an International F-TR class if they think there is enough interest?
I sincerely hope that despite the incredible skill level of competitive shooters winning matches, F-class (TR or Open) remains an easier path into the world of competitive shooting. Let's keep it accessible to the average rifle owner.
Scott
I have never shot International F-TR, but like Palma, aren't the bullets restricted to less than 156 grains for .308 caliber and 91 grains for .223? If I am correct, wouldn't a simple solution to the issue Darrell stated this discussion with is for match directors to offer an International F-TR class if they think there is enough interest?
I sincerely hope that despite the incredible skill level of competitive shooters winning matches, F-class (TR or Open) remains an easier path into the world of competitive shooting. Let's keep it accessible to the average rifle owner.
Scott
Laurie, as a UK F/TR shooter with 223 and 308, I always read your posts with interest.
You say about the 223 being uncompetitve with 80s at 1000 yards. I tried lots of 90s but have found elevation is the killer. Trying 80s again, thus far they have a much better elevation spread. Working up a new load, but last time I tried them I was getting well over 3k with the berger 80.5. Given the G7 BC is .234 against the 155.5's .237 and the .236 of the scenar, I don't think there's much in it.
Have I missed something?
You say about the 223 being uncompetitve with 80s at 1000 yards. I tried lots of 90s but have found elevation is the killer. Trying 80s again, thus far they have a much better elevation spread. Working up a new load, but last time I tried them I was getting well over 3k with the berger 80.5. Given the G7 BC is .234 against the 155.5's .237 and the .236 of the scenar, I don't think there's much in it.
Have I missed something?
You've got a slightly lower BC - but I must admit that Berger has made yet another very worthwhile step forward with the 0.224" 80.5gn BT compared to when I ran the original numbers for what was available at the time I went down the .223/90gn route.
However, I just don't think that the .223R user can get an 80 to the same MVs as some national league competitors are running 155s at in their 308s. Think numbers around, or beyond 3,100 fps!
You can get the 90gn Berger VLD to shoot well at long range, but it's very hard work. My 223s' barrels so far just haven't taken to the 80.5 unfortunately - a shame as I'd like to be able to use this model. I'm using the 90gn Berger BT instead in the 'affordable' 223 F/TR rifle at a relatively modest 2,600 or 2,650 fps from a 26" barrel. At its peak, my long-range F/TR 223 and its 31" barrel produced 2,907 fps and low teens ES with the 90 VLD, but that was pushing it, and a really hot summer day would have produced serious primer problems. 2,850 with VarGet was less risky and less temperature affected. Using the 'Litz Rule of equivalent ME values' for different bullet weights produces an ME of 1,689 ft/lbs for a 90 at 2,907 fps and that equates to a respectable 3,073 fps for the 80.5gn bullet - assuming there is an accuracy node at that MV of course. The more 'sensible' 90gn MV of 2,850 fps has an 80.5 equivalent of 3,013 fps.
I have seen people produce some frightening MVs with the 80.5 in rifles with RPA 4-lug actions, but none I've seen so far would group under an MOA at 100yd at these same velocities. If you can get significantly above 3,000 fps with the 80.5 and with the quarter MOA grouping that I could get from the 90 VLD, congratulations ...... and be careful you don't waste barrel life in anything other than major competitions as you may not repeat the feat with its successor. There seems to be a bit of a lottery with long-range 223 at present. Some barrels perform outstandingly giving the right MV / grouping combinations, many simply don't. I live in hope that somebody will discover just what combination of groove numbers and form / internal dimensions gives the right results consistently which could really assist the cartridge's long-range use. It'll never seriously compete with 308W though in the popularity stakes as the latter is simply so much easier to get good results with, and so much less likely to go 'out of tune' for some inexplicable reason or other.
Anyways ... we're rather off-topic here, but this exchange does emphasise the principle that I believe in 100% that almost anything should be allowed in F/TR as long as the rifle chambers .223 Rem or 308 Win and complies with the regulations such as the 8.25 kg overall weight. To give an example of the radical thinking around, I heard a well argued case for re-adopting iron match sights the other week to allow the weight saving over a scope to go into a yet longer / heavier barrel. Some of the top ex TR riflemen can hold a circular aiming mark so well in 'irons' and adjust windage on the knob between shots that it might just work out very well! Vive l'experimentation!
Erik Cortina said:
Well I'm not much on being politicaly correct, but I have to agree with Erik. I'm not out shooting many this day in time! However I'm working my butt off to do so! The same as one FTR shooter James Crofts has done, and the soul reason he is out shooting everthing and everybody on the East coast!! James is putting in the work and time!! This is what it takes more than anything!! I believe that more than anything!!
What really gets under my skin! Is some of the internet High Masters want to change the rules only because their not winning and don't want to do the work!!!! However some are just much better at politics than shooting!!
Why not ban anyone that is sponsered and gets money or gear? A new shooter doesnt have that advantage. Make f/tr like college sports if you get any gear , rifles or ammo for free you are f/open . This sounds alot more fair then any rule change about wieght of bullets . As a new shooter in mid 2010 I had to get a second job to upgrade my rifle /scope to the level were I could compete localy forget worrying about bullet wieghts.Some of you top shooters forget what it is to be a new shooter and pay for all your gear.This is how most new shooters look at it.Wow all the good shooters have nightforce scopes how will I ever come up with the money to get one of those! Not wow he is shooting a box of 48$ 200 plus grain bergers how will I ever buy those.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
mattt said:
I'm willing to bet that the sponsored shooters spend much more of their own money than the "new" shooter.
The top shooters were new shooters once, and guess what, we didn't sit around talking about how it was not fair when we lost, we got out there and worked our butts off to get
better at what we do (that's how you get sponsored by the way!).
I tell you what, if you want to become a top shooter, only the guy that looks back at you when you shave can make that happen.
Eric This whole bullet wieght thing is about the new shooter? Well the new shooter doesnt know what a hybrid bullet is . That is my point. The sponsership thing is to show what a new guy looks at not hybrid wieght but rifle /scope /sinclaire bypod. Just trying to give you guys a new f/tr shooters view wich you seem to be so concerend about ;D
mattt said:
I will add to what Erik just said! No one gives me jack!! I have worked 60, 70+ hrs a week to be able to afford what I have and buy loading components! Not to mention the hrs spent at the loading bench plus 2hr of sleep at night so I could get things
together to make a match. All this and I'm still far from a top shooter! However it doesn't mean I'm going to cry because the man next to me has better equipment!! It just means I'm going to have to work that much harder!!
I'm starting to see now why many sling shooters don't like Fclass shooters!
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