F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

[deadlyswift]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. So can you explain why someone would spend $5000 to shoot the heavy 215, and 230s? When that is already being done to shoot the 185, and 200s. What is the idea behind this change? How exactly would this rule change help FTR??

Because you can also be competitive with a factory Remington or Savage at $1000 with bullet weights up to 200-ish. Once you are pushed into the 215+ range, you'll need to modify the throat of your rifle enough that it will be useful for nothing else *but* the heavies.

What this means in practice is that F-T/R competitors will start needing to bring 2 rifles to a match; a 'short gun' to shoot 300, 500, and 600, and a 'long gun' for everything else. There isn't a chance you'll catch me running 230's at 300 or 600 yards.

Thanks for the reply Darrell. I have to say tho I do disagree? I'm aware that you and others shoot factory Savage rifles, and yes I have many Savages myself and love them. They do shoot extremely well. One may be able to buy a factory rifle for $1000, but one that thinks they are going to get out that cheap in this sport is sadly mistaken. To be competitive in FTR even here in NC my local competition is very stiff! For someone to be competitive they are going to have to shoot and shoot often! Not only that but travel and shoot different ranges and experience different conditions. All this takes a lot of money. Loading componets alone are going to probably easily exceed $1000. Most likely be twice that. It's not hard to shoot 1500 rounds in 1yr of shooting. Like any sport one is going to have to shoot and stay in-tune with their skills. This takes lots of shooting. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a National champion doing load development on his rifle sit at home and then go and win the Nationals. They are going to have to shoot and shoot a lot! Like I said its going to cost a lot of money!

Take Two rifles to a match? Shoot the 230s at 300, 500, 600. Like you I would never. But shoot lighter bullets at MR and shoot heavy bullets at LR yes, but out of the same rifle. Anybody believing they need two different rifles in FTR are just not thinking outside of the box, and need to just shoot F/Open.

I will say I'm glad to see this being proposed to shooters and not changed then shooters being informed. I just have to say I respectfully request to not fix what isn't broken!!!
Thank You!!

 

[scaxeman]

Take Two rifles to a match? Shoot the 230s at 300, 500, 600. Like you I would never. But shoot lighter bullets at MR and shoot heavy bullets at LR yes, but out of the same rifle. Anybody believing they need two different rifles in FTR are just not thinking outside of the box, and need to just shoot F/Open.

I will say I'm glad to see this being proposed to shooters and not changed then shooters being informed. I just have to say I respectfully request to not fix what isn't broken!!!
Thank You!!

I've modified chambers to optimize them for the 215's and 230's, take my word for it, you won't be shooting light bullets out of it again. They'd have room to do backflips before they ever touched the lands! ;D

 

[deadlyswift]

Take Two rifles to a match? Shoot the 230s at 300, 500, 600. Like you I would never. But shoot lighter bullets at MR and shoot heavy bullets at LR yes, but out of the same rifle. Anybody believing they need two different rifles in FTR are just not thinking outside of the box, and need to just shoot F/Open.

I will say I'm glad to see this being proposed to shooters and not changed then shooters being informed. I just have to say I respectfully request to not fix what isn't broken!!!
Thank You!!

I've modified chambers to optimize them for the 215's and 230's, take my word for it, you won't be shooting light bullets out of it again. They'd have room to do backflips before they ever touched the lands! ;D

Even so it's as easy as a barrel change witch takes minutes, not 2 rifles. Like I said sometimes you just got to think a little.

 

[memilanuk]

Take Two rifles to a match? Shoot the 230s at 300, 500, 600. Like you I would never. But shoot lighter bullets at MR and shoot heavy bullets at LR yes, but out of the same rifle. Anybody believing they need two different rifles in FTR are just not thinking outside of the box, and need to just shoot F/Open.

I think the concern here is that by the time you throat a barrel long enough to to properly accommodate 230gn projectiles, it will be so long that using anything else will be somewhat of a crapshoot.

I do not have a barrel throated for 230s, personally... but I would imagine it would exceed even the ability of say, a Berger 155.5 BT Fullbore to tolerate jump and shoot accurately. Maybe, maybe not. Hence the comment about possibly needing two rifles (or at least two barrels).

For other bullets up to the 200-210gn class... one could feasibly seat those a little deep, and seat 155s a little long + jump them a bit - and still probably come out okay in both departments. I'm not 100% sure a 200gn bullet would stabilize in a 12 twist - which is a pretty common twist for factory rifles.

FWIW, my view is that something similar to the Palma international vs. domestic USA rules would be a useful compromise. Limit to 156gn for International competition, with no official domestic limit. The people who want to experiment, can. The people who want to grab any old .308 and stuff factory match ammo in it for a chance to get their feet wet, can. The people who want to shoot on the International level and will be spending the time/money to do so... will probably build or obtain rifles to suit the rules at the level they wish to compete at. 'Officially' it only affects a very small number of people - the ones already close to the top. Unofficially, it tends to be somewhat self-limiting as many folks who have custom guns built will likely follow their lead - much like Palma in the USA.

The big problem would be convincing the *rest* of the world that 156gn is a good idea for future FCWC rules.

Monte

 

[scaxeman]

Even so it's as easy as a barrel change witch takes minutes, not 2 rifles. Like I said sometimes you just got to think a little.

Believe me, I know how easy it is to change barrels, especially Savage ones. Believe me too when I say that I won't be doing it on the firing line any time really soon, I'd rather be paying attention to conditions and prepping for the next string!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Heck, I'd shoot heavies at 300! You should have heard 'em scream at Plantation when I put 200's into the berm on a rainy/snowy day! The blast of mud was truly exciting!

 

[XTR]

Re-post of my thoughts from SH:

RE: bullet weights:

I can live with it either way. Personally I think I'd rather see a 201 limit, though in my mind it's not "fairness to all" or "making new shooters competitive".
I don't think shooting heavy bullets is going to drive anyone away. What drives my opinion is the concept (again, in my mind) that pushing bullets that heavy from a 308 is just silly impractical and completely gaming the system; however, as stated I can live with it either way. We certainly are not going the way that USPSA/IPSC went. I played that game back when they used to make all courses of fire 1911 neutral and there were no extended mags. Comparing a stock R700 or a Savage to a rifle with a long throat in a custom barrel is a long way from the comparison between a single stack 1911 with irons and a full on IPSC race gun.

As a side, as long as Remington cuts the throats in their stock barrels a 215 might actually be just right. smile

I'm sure at some point around 230 or so you reach a threshold above that you can't make a bullet with enough BC that it can be pushed fast enough from a 308 to make it to 1000 super sonic, and maybe that is the answer, just leave it alone and one day we all end up shooting 225s or whatever the physics dictate is the "best" combination.

Another idea that on the surface I like a lot was proposed in this discussion on another forum is to limit OAL. It's easier to check and would accomplish much the same thing. If OAL was limited to something like 2.9 to 2.95 then you can shoot the uber heavies if you can get around the resultant loss of case volume, and even the laser 155s might have to slow a bit as the bullet pushed back into the case.

Easy to enforce/check and accomplishes pretty much the same ends.

 

[Ian]

I voted for the 156gr. cap, but I think the COAL cap. is a better option.

 

[sdean]

What would the next vote be on- how about bipods need to be under $100.

 

[Steve Blair]

I prefer using heavy bullets but think this proposed rule change is an attempt to address a non-existent problem. There is no dominance by heavy bullets in F-T/R. Most shooters are in the ~185 range. John Chilton shoots 155 bullets (last time I asked) and seems to do Ok. I shot 155.5 Berger FULLBORE in a 1000 yard match and was blown around a little more than I like, but it could be learned. Who cares what bullet weight a competitor shoots? [br]
At the current weight limit, it is more difficult to manage recoil properly using heavy bullets. I have a lot of experience shooting 210 LRBT Bergers and have been testing 230 Hybrids. Recoil goes up significantly with bullet weight in full pressure loads. For the majority of shooters, effectively managing the recoil is probably more difficult than dealing with the small increase in wind effect.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

What would the next vote be on- how about bipods need to be under $100.

And next thing you know you'll see bipods for $99 with a $200 mounting adaptor... I've shot some of my best scores off of a Caldwell (Harris knock-off). Sorry, I don't believe that the bipod has even a little bit to do with scores and who wins. If the shooter changes bipod, they just have to change technique to suit.

I keep hearing this "equipment race" theory thrown about. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but put any of the US team members on an old Harris bipod and they'll still whip you. Reduce the rifle weight, and the same thing will happen. Change bullet weights, barrels, COAL, etc. and the result will be the same. The only way to "even" the playing field is to not let anyone practice or develop loads. Then, the "gifted" might rise to the top. Of course, we won't have a team worth anything.

The "I can't win because" really gets under my skin. I have a personal aversion to anything that smacks of failure in the making.

Sorry for the harsh sound, it isn't directly aimed at anyone in particular. My appologies to Sdean for any offense, none was intended.

 

[scaxeman]

I prefer using heavy bullets but think this proposed rule change is an attempt to address a non-existent problem.

Exactly, it is a non-existent problem NOW. This whole discussion is an attempt to be proactive, and not find us in a (hypothetical) place 3-5 years from now where in order to be even remotely competitive in F-T/R, you must be running a tweaky 230 or 240 grain load.

I too have done a considerable amount of testing with the 215's and 230 hybrids. I see there is considerable promise there. Will it end up being a panacea, who knows? But discussing a potential issue well in advance should never be a bad thing.

Darrell

 

[memilanuk]

Just to throw a wrinkle in here... if we *are* considering limiting the .308 shooters to a given bullet weight, should we not restrict the .223 shooters somewhat as well... i.e. <156gn .308 = ~<81gn .223, <201gn .308 = ~<90gn .223...

 

[Steve Blair]

I too have done a considerable amount of testing with the 215's and 230 hybrids. I see there is considerable promise there. Will it end up being a panacea, who knows? But discussing a potential issue well in advance should never be a bad thing.

Darrell

[br]
Well, the reason I shoot them is that I think they perform better in the wind. But, the recoil on the bipod still gives me problems. At the 2010 AZ Palma Saturday match, I was shooting 210 Bergers. I shot a 150-4 at 800, 150-10 at 900 and dropped seven points and cross-fired at 1000. The cross-fire was directly the result of my inattention and recoil displacing the muzzle. Chilton also cross-fired at 1000 but still won the tournament. So, in addition to John being a better shooter, the 210's did not provide a big advantage. [br]
If you think that there is a potential problem here, keep reviewing Regional and National match results for evidence of a disproportionate advantage. When there is evidence (I don't think there will be any), action can be taken. Let's not anticipate and act on something that may never become a problem.

 

[mr_logic]

I don't think this will be much of an issue. personally I go with having light bullets only because I think it removes so much expensive experimentation and encourages people just to get out and shoot.

However, i honestly don't think heavies in a 308 will displace everyone else by such a margin that a muppet with a heavy bullet will beat a highly skilled shot with a light bullet.

I come at this from spending 2-3 years getting a 223 to shoot. I started with 80s, then went through boxes of 90 vlds. Then gave up and got good short range groups with 90 BTs. And shot them st long range to see massive elevation spread. I spent ages trying finer bits of reloading than I normally do, and have given up. Back to 80s for me - elevation spread is a nightmare, but I can get better at reading the wind.

 

[johnu]

I would first consider dropping the total weight of the rifle/bipod. (I always thought that the "tr" stood for "tactical rifle.") Six kilograms maybe? That might just dissuade folks from using the heavier projectiles - if they could tolerate the recoil, kudos to them. A folding bipod may be another idea.

But I do like the max COL idea.

John

 

[deadlyswift]

OAL? I shoot the 185s My OAL started at 2.87 in length. that is with a .010 jam What do I do with throat erosion? How are we going to be exact on OAL? Would you messure to the tip? Berger are awesome bullets but vary quite a bit when messuring to the tip. How is anyone going to build precision ammo with a rule like this? Messure OAL to the Ogive?

 

[memilanuk]

deadlyswift,

Cut the throat short to accommodate for throat wear and/or develop a jump-tolerant load, would be the two options that come to mind. Neither of which are ideal.

Monte

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I would first consider dropping the total weight of the rifle/bipod. (I always thought that the "tr" stood for "tactical rifle.") Six kilograms maybe? That might just dissuade folks from using the heavier projectiles - if they could tolerate the recoil, kudos to them. A folding bipod may be another idea.

But I do like the max COL idea.

John

Everyone, please don't take offense to the following: I just can't figure out how to express the thoughts in a more positive tone. I hope you all can understand the point is not intended to be abrasive or demeaning to anyone.

TR is an acronym for Target Rifle. It refers to a 308 or 223 caliber long range prone rifle, much like you see being shot in Palma matches. There is a total of nothing "tactical" about a 308 with a 30-32" barrel and an action designed to be, or modified to be single-shot.

Two problems with the "tactical" concept:

1) F-class is an international game. It is played all over the world with very similar rules. If we start monkeying with our rifles to make the game harder, we are going to find ourselves between a rock and a hard place when we go to compete against other countries.

2) Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the "tactical" shooters out there. They just play a different game, and I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate me telling them that they have to hump a 25 lb rifle around, or shoot the caliber of my choosing to even the playing field for me. We are separate sports for a reason. Trust me, you don't want some of the people I shoot against playing the tactical game... They are far too ingenuitive and skilled to open that box.

 

[Heavies]

I don't think that limiting the bullet weights is a good idea. Like many have commented, the idea of getting an unfair advantage because of the high BC is tempered by the limited case capacity of the .308 in the first place.

As for becoming an equipment race, it already is. The most competitive rifles are those that are build specifically for the game and distance involved. Champs are not won by bone stock hunting rigs. These rigs may get a person shooting, but to be in or near the top, one needs the right tool.

Perhaps a class where factory rigs, (excluding Savage PTA's which are really target rifles in the first place) with light modifications, might be considered.