Extractors: Sako vs Mini 16 ?

[ebb]

Mine isn't a 223 its a 6.5-284

 

[ebb]

After a short inspection and looking at the pictures posted it is a Sako for sure.

 

[STS]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

They don't come loose...they completely blow off the bolt face. How is that strong?

I guess we just have a different definition of strength. I assumed you were talking about the job it was designed for.

The reason they come off is from high pressure gas compressing the retaining spring and plunger, not from breakage.

Has anyone ever seen a Sako extractor blow down a raceway? Wouldn't the root of the bolt handle be in the way?

I figured I'd stay out of this discussion, but at this point I think I should add the following information in the interest of safety. I have witnessed a Sako extractor exit a Remington action on 3 separate occasions. The first, a friend and I were in a P-dog town giving em heck and he had a primer let loose in one of his rifles after shooting several hundred rounds of ammo. No explanation as to why, it just did, out of the clear blue sky. The extractor ended up some where out on the Wyoming prairie never to be seen again. No harm was done to the rifle or shooter.

The second was in my hands. I was new to the world of .17 cal. centerfire and got a bit too free with the powder and has a case head leak. The extractor made a nice little dent in the steel of the rear of the loading port of my old 40-x action. No harm to the shooter.

The third was at a silhouette match where I was acting a range officer. One of the shooters had a case rupture and ended up having the extractor surgically removed from his right cheek.
I have heard people say many times that Sako extractors can't get out of those actions but I can tell you they most definitely can exit and do so with a great deal of speed.

 

[STS]

That's a good question,how do you tell the difference? I asked for a M16 but got a call back saying it wouldn't work, I don't think there was a mini M16 back then. They removed the broken extractor groove and silver soldered a ring in the bolt and turned it to fit the case head. They never cleaned it up and a few months later the ejector froze up and I had to disassemble it and clean up all the rust from the silver solder flux. If the extractor fails whether its a M16 or a Sako don't they both have the potential to fly down the bolt lug raceway and cause serious injury?

You most likely have a Sako. A full M16 is way to big to work on a 223 in a 700 bolt face. Pretty sure a Mini M16 would be too big as well. But don't quote me on the mini...
As far as telling what you have, theres a big difference between a mini M16 and a Sako that is easily identified.

This picture link shows a Sako. Short and no pin holding it in place.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sako+extractor&oq=sako+extractor&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61l3j0l2.5661j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=kv-3IF4ZwqW4YM%253A%3Bundefined%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgilarivertactical.com%252Fimages%252Fsako.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgilarivertactical.com%252Fproduct-sako.html%3B505%3B347


This next picture link shows a mini m16. Much longer and has a pin running through the bolt about midway down to hold it in place.
https://www.google.com/search?q=m16+extractor&oq=m16&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0j5.1766j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=zo_wNFF2L4ZBSM%253A%3Bundefined%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi55.tinypic.com%252F126bmea.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.accurateshooter.com%252Findex.php%253Ftopic%253D3770378.0%3B654%3B544

A M-16 extractor will work with a .223 bolt face. I have one in an old 40-X action on my .223 AI.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

That's a good question,how do you tell the difference? I asked for a M16 but got a call back saying it wouldn't work, I don't think there was a mini M16 back then. They removed the broken extractor groove and silver soldered a ring in the bolt and turned it to fit the case head. They never cleaned it up and a few months later the ejector froze up and I had to disassemble it and clean up all the rust from the silver solder flux. If the extractor fails whether its a M16 or a Sako don't they both have the potential to fly down the bolt lug raceway and cause serious injury?

You most likely have a Sako. A full M16 is way to big to work on a 223 in a 700 bolt face. Pretty sure a Mini M16 would be too big as well. But don't quote me on the mini...
As far as telling what you have, theres a big difference between a mini M16 and a Sako that is easily identified.

This picture link shows a Sako. Short and no pin holding it in place.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sako+extractor&oq=sako+extractor&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61l3j0l2.5661j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=kv-3IF4ZwqW4YM%253A%3Bundefined%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgilarivertactical.com%252Fimages%252Fsako.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgilarivertactical.com%252Fproduct-sako.html%3B505%3B347


This next picture link shows a mini m16. Much longer and has a pin running through the bolt about midway down to hold it in place.
https://www.google.com/search?q=m16+extractor&oq=m16&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0j5.1766j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=zo_wNFF2L4ZBSM%253A%3Bundefined%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi55.tinypic.com%252F126bmea.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.accurateshooter.com%252Findex.php%253Ftopic%253D3770378.0%3B654%3B544

A M-16 extractor will work with a .223 bolt face. I have one in an old 40-X action on my .223 AI.

Thanks. Is it a full or mini? I have always been told that the full M16 radial bend and width of the cut make it too much in a 700 bolt for 223 style cases. PT&G will not install a full M16 on any of their .378 face 700 bolts either.

 

[STS]

It's the full one. That one has been in there at least 20 years so I doubt there was such a thing as a mini at that time.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

It's the full one. That one has been in there at least 20 years so I doubt there was such a thing as a mini at that time.

Thanks for that info.

 

[ebb]

Is the M16 or MiniM16 that much safer than a Sako that you would want to remove the Sako and install a mini M16 or a full size M16? Would the cut for the Sako be to big to change to the M16 or mini M16? I have wondered for a while about making a piece of metal to go in the lug raceway to block the path to my face, but don't know how to secure it. If it is possible it would have to feed in as the bolt is installed and the lugs have cleared the back of the receiver. Maybe a flush allen screw that would partially thread into the raceway block. I am sure that the Sako is potentially dangerous but don't know of a fix, without buying a new bolt and setting head space. The bolt has had the firing pin bushed and it shoots very good I don't want to upset the apple cart but want to be able to see also.

 

[STS]

Ebb, In my opinion there is no question that the M-16 extractor (of either size) is safer than the Sako. The cross pin in the M-16 will secure it in the bolt under all but the most extreme conditions. I think the only way the M-16 could result in shrapnel exiting is to physically break into. I see that as an extremely low probability. The M-16 extractor is wider AND longer than the Sako but without doing some measuring I can't say whether replacing the Sako with the M-16 is possible. It may be that the area where the cross pin hole would be impossible to do because of the Sako cut. I don't know for sure either way.
I had my little experiment gone wrong with my .17 Mach IV when I was learning the limits of the cartridge early on. I probably had less than 100 rounds through it when I screwed up. That barrel was removed after 4065 rounds of stellar service 2 weeks ago. A little learning about .17 calibers and a bit of common sense, and I had no fear of that extractor causing any more issues. Hopefully I'll get another 4000 rounds out of the new barrel with the same Sako extractor.

 

[masterblaster1]

I just got an email from PTG on a action I ordered from them in 223, I ordered the M16 from their drop down menu and they just sent me an email that its either a sako or remington extractor that the menu was wrong. I ordered the Remington extractor.

here is the email

We are in the process of getting your action order completed. We had a bit of an issue with the bolt. You chose the 223 bolt face.

The only extractor options available are Remington or Sako.

Please decide which you prefer as soon as possible so we can get this completed and shipped out to you

 

[Papa Charlie]

I know this thread is ancient, but if you were to order a Rem 700 SA Magnum Bolt from PTG would you get the Mini M16 or the Full Size M16 extractor and why?
I will be rechambering my rifle from .308 Win to .300 WSM.

 

[carlsbad]

Edit: PTG lets you specify which you want. I usually order full size for magnum and mini for 473 or smaller.

--Jerry

 

[Papa Charlie]

Is there any concern about weakening the bolt with the larger extractor?

 

[carlsbad]

I install both. I've never seen a bolt fail from extractor installation but looking at the 2, I like the fact that the Sako removes less material. for a magnum M-16 extractor the spring pocket is .210 deep. Deeper on smaller boltfaces and when you get to 6.8 spc boltface, the pocket is starting to infringe on the firing pin channel.

The biggest disadvantage of the m-16 in magnum or 338 boltface is the need to open the bolt nose clearance up by as much as .050". This would let a lot of gas out in the vicinity of your face in the event of a large casing failure. This isn't a problem for 308 bf but the extractor does create a large channel for gas to escape.

Sako removes a lot less material and does not impact your nose clearance. some are concerned with sako extractors blowing out and coming down the outside of the bolt during a casing failure, and it has happened. Keeping the bolt nose clearances tight will generally prevent this.

Advocating a sako extractor on the forum will always get people telling you they are unsafe--often by people who have never seen a casing failure but like to repeat things they read on the internet. All I will say is that I quietly install a lot of them for customers who request them. I do install more M-16s though.

 

[6.5 Rooster]

I have a Surgeon action that I bought used and it has a Sako extractor. I’ve had reliability problems with it (new spring & claw seems to have fixed it for now), but never breakage or mysterious disappearances.

If I had any such inclination in the future, could an M16 extractor be cut in or are the positions of the two styles different and / or the material needed for the M16 to work properly already cut away for the original Sako setup?

Sorry for the goofy question - I’m away for work & can’t envision the two as if they were in my hands...

Rooster

 

[SRM]

Ive seen actions with the extractor cut under the lug so the bolt face ring of steel is still intact. Cant remember which one that is but i was impressed

Borden makes a version of that.

 

[dmoran]

Opposite of Sako's, I've never seen or even heard of a M16 extractor failing (blowing off).
Was at a SR-BR match once back in 2003 where there were 3 separate incidents of Sako's that blew off in one day.
Polishing a Remington extractor stops brass swiping and smoothens cycling, and are very safe.