Extractors: Sako vs Mini 16 ?

[Ledd Slinger]

Thanks LS, I want everything to work correctly and as well as possible. This rifle will be for my son so I want everything to be great.
However I still have to find out if I will lose the ring of steel if installing the mini 16 extractor.

Yes you will, but no big deal. If it was that unsafe many manufacturers would be out of business. Howa 1500 uses a full M16 extractor. The claw extractors on Rugers and Winchesters do not allow for a complete ring of metal around the case. Many custom actions utilize M16 extractors. Are they all wrong and unsafe? No.

Any rifle is unsafe when pushing beyond maximum listed loads that could cause an overspressure. Bad thing about Remington is that regardless of whether or not you have a factory extractor or cut-in aftermarket extractor, the excess gasses blow right back in your face if a primer blows out. Horrible design that has nothing to do with the extractor. I've had cases blow out on a Ruger M77 as well, but the gases are ported out the side so you don't even know about it until you try to open the bolt.

Don't be concerned with safety on the M16 extractors. Remingtons suck in an overpressure situation either way. If testing loads in Remington 700, ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION! of course that should apply to all firearms, but more so for Rem 700s

 

[butchlambert]

Thanks LS, I want everything to work correctly and as well as possible. This rifle will be for my son so I want everything to be great.
However I still have to find out if I will lose the ring of steel if installing the mini 16 extractor.

Yes you will, but no big deal. If it was that unsafe many manufacturers would be out of business. Howa 1500 uses a full M16 extractor. The claw extractors on Rugers and Winchesters do not allow for a complete ring of metal around the case. Many custom actions utilize M16 extractors. Are they all wrong and unsafe? No.

Any rifle is unsafe when pushing beyond maximum listed loads that could cause an overspressure. Bad thing about Remington is that regardless of whether or not you have a factory extractor or cut-in aftermarket extractor, the excess gasses blow right back in your face if a primer blows out. Horrible design that has nothing to do with the extractor. I've had cases blow out on a Ruger M77 as well, but the gases are ported out the side so you don't even know about it until you try to open the bolt.

Don't be concerned with safety on the M16 extractors. Remingtons suck in an overpressure situation either way. If testing loads in Remington 700, ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION! of course that should apply to all firearms, but more so for Rem 700s

Humm?

 

[Dans40X]

Butch,
Exactly, Hummm!!

Spoken from someone that really hasn't a CLUE!

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Not sure what you are both 'humming' about? If you have ever had a 700 blow up in your face you would know that everything I say is true. So how does the complete ring of metal help anything in that situation? Experienced it twice myself.

Then with a Ruger where over half the face ring is missing to allow for the claw extractor to function, I felt nothing out of the ordinary when a round completely blew apart in the chamber. Funny thing is that the Ruger remained completely unharmed in the aftermath where as the 700 did not fare so well. The 700 bolt face recessed area that has the extractor claw blew completely off rendering the factory extractor useless. Had to have the face reamed and bushed with a Sako extractor installed to get it back in action. Would have used a mini M16, but my gunsmith did not have the tooling at the time.

The first time I blew a primer out on a 700, the face remained intact, but the gasses flew back right into my face just the same as the second instance. In neither of the misfortunes I experienced did the 'complete ring' of the factory bolt face help me in any way from getting pelted in the face with hot burning gas. Nor did it in the second account strengthen the face enough to keep it from being blown apart.

So again, what exactly are you two 'humming' about???

 

[Dans40X]

Hummmmm

Leddslinger,
Maybe you should purchase a reloading manual...& read/abide by it!
Overpressurized loads in any action w/ your bassackwards train of thought is dangerous to yourself & others.

CRF bolts-
There is nothing to prevent gases from following the ejector cut in the bolt face down the bolt rail to your unprotected cheek in a pierced primer/catastrophic case failure.

Rem bolts-
There is a gas relief hole @ 7 o'clock in the bolt nose when bolt is in battery to vent out @ 3 o'clock in the front receiver ring.
The firing pin stop "SHOULDER" acts as a gas check to stop gases traveling through the bolt body.

 

[butchlambert]

Not sure what you are both 'humming' about? If you have ever had a 700 blow up in your face you would know that everything I say is true. So how does the complete ring of metal help anything in that situation? Experienced it twice myself.

Then with a Ruger where over half the face ring is missing to allow for the claw extractor to function, I felt nothing out of the ordinary when a round completely blew apart in the chamber. Funny thing is that the Ruger remained completely unharmed in the aftermath where as the 700 did not fare so well. The 700 bolt face recessed area that has the extractor claw blew completely off rendering the factory extractor useless. Had to have the face reamed and bushed with a Sako extractor installed to get it back in action. Would have used a mini M16, but my gunsmith did not have the tooling at the time.

The first time I blew a primer out on a 700, the face remained intact, but the gasses flew back right into my face just the same as the second instance. In neither of the misfortunes I experienced did the 'complete ring' of the factory bolt face help me in any way from getting pelted in the face with hot burning gas. Nor did it in the second account strengthen the face enough to keep it from being blown apart.

So again, what exactly are you two 'humming' about???

Led slanger
If you are on the forums for several years, you will find some folks that disagree with you from time to time. It happens to all of us. It appears that it really got to you that we might question you. You will be much ahead by learning from this thread and not getting upset about it.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Oh no, I'm not upset. I value debate at times because I may be wrong and may not know it yet. I am just curious as to what the 'humm?' meant? If I am giving false information, please let me know.

In summary, I believe a Remington factory extractors are fine and can be left alone with no issues. But I know that the factory extractor claw is not indestructible and cannot be replaced once broken. And although it makes sense to leave an entire ring of steel around the case, as is with the factory extractor, it does not keep the shooter safe from harm if a primer blows out on a case. Had I not been wearing sunglasses in both my blowouts with a 700, eye damage would have been a definite possibility.

So in light of my personal experiences I dont see reasoning to be against a cut in the bolt face. I do not like Sakos for their weakness...and now also because of that crazy story of one shooting out the back of the action (just like the gas does), but thats about it. Having owned 700s with factory extractors, a Sako extractor, the mini 16, and a Howa 1500 with the full M16, I firmly believe that if a person is going to change their extractor, there is nothing to worry about with safety when using a M16 variant.

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

 

[L.Sherm]

Dans40X, I guess every rifle you have has a manual written on it? Try finding some load info on a 17pee wee not much out there. Yes i poped some primers on it starting out and got some gases back in my face (Rem action)before I figured it out. Some wildcats have little or no info yes you can compare but it's still not the same, if you reload long enough its gonna happen and i'll bet there others on here it's happened to too. I guess what I'm getting at is we all can agree to disagree I don't understand why you got to be a SMART***

 

[jrm850]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Dans40X, I guess every rifle you have has a manual written on it? Try finding some load info on a 17pee wee not much out there. Yes i poped some primers on it starting out and got some gases back in my face (Rem action)before I figured it out. Some wildcats have little or no info yes you can compare but it's still not the same, if you reload long enough its gonna happen and i'll bet there others on here it's happened to too. I guess what I'm getting at is we all can agree to disagree I don't understand why you got to be a SMART***

QuickLOAD.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

They don't come loose...they completely blow off the bolt face. How is that strong?

 

[jpretle]

I have to go w/ Ledd Slinger and L Sherm, on this one.
For the record, I have on 3 occasions, had 'stuff'/gas, blown back into my face from pierced primers. Yes, they were light and moderate loads, during load development. I have to go w/ Ledd Slinger and L Sherm, on this one.
I am now having my 700 bolt bushed and a new firing pin installed.

 

[jrm850]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

They don't come loose...they completely blow off the bolt face. How is that strong?

I guess we just have a different definition of strength. I assumed you were talking about the job it was designed for.

The reason they come off is from high pressure gas compressing the retaining spring and plunger, not from breakage.

Has anyone ever seen a Sako extractor blow down a raceway? Wouldn't the root of the bolt handle be in the way?

 

[butchlambert]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

They don't come loose...they completely blow off the bolt face. How is that strong?

I guess we just have a different definition of strength. I assumed you were talking about the job it was designed for.

The reason they come off is from high pressure gas compressing the retaining spring and plunger, not from breakage.

Has anyone ever seen a Sako extractor blow down a raceway? Wouldn't the root of the bolt handle be in the way?

Read my earlier post.

 

[butchlambert]

Chad Dixon,Long Rifles Inc, is not a friend of mine, but! He said that he would never work on a rifle with a Sako extractor. He stated that he has attended a couple shooters that were injured by them. If you still feel warm and fuzzy about them, you have been made aware of the circumstances.
As far as Remington extractors not being able to be replaced? Brownells has offered them for many years.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The biggest difference in strength and safety between a Sako and an M16 extractor is that the claw of both M16 styles is pinned through the bolt at its pivot point. The Sako is not and can be popped out by hand. That is the Achilles heel of the Sako. Theres barely anything holding it in there. The strength difference between the Sako and M16 is night and day.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think a Sako extractor is weak at all and you cannot remove a properly fit Sako by hand. If you don't like them because they can come loose during a case failure, that's definitely a valid reason, but I'll argue the strength issue.

They don't come loose...they completely blow off the bolt face. How is that strong?

I guess we just have a different definition of strength. I assumed you were talking about the job it was designed for.

The reason they come off is from high pressure gas compressing the retaining spring and plunger, not from breakage.

Has anyone ever seen a Sako extractor blow down a raceway? Wouldn't the root of the bolt handle be in the way?

Your statement is partly true. But you have not seen a blowout as powerful as I have seen. You can sometimes just put them back in once they blow off, but I have seen them completely break apart on other peoples rifles on a couple occasions. Sure the Sako is strong in the manner that it can eject casings from a chamber, but I am talking about strength in the context as being able to take the pressure hit and stay in place, not blow off the bolt face in pieces.

Not sure how the extractor got past the bolt shroud in the story mentioned earlier, but crazy things can happen.

There's just absolutely no way that a Sako can match the strength of a M16. The M16 is pinned, it's not going anywhere. If you have a 700 with a Sako extractor on hand, push on that extractor hard with your finger. If you push hard enough, it should pop off. Just make sure you do it over a 5 gallon bucket so you don't lose the spring and plunger when they come flying out. How much pressure do you think you can apply with your finger even when pushing as hard as you can? It's nothing compared to a case blowing out.

It's not just me either. Everyone else here knows the Sako is weak under extreme pressure. If Sako was the only option, as it was years ago, then that's all you could do. But now with the option of the M16 variants, there's no reason to use a Sako unless you have a small diamter case rim like the 223 or smaller. If using a small case, then I would recommend leaving the factory 700 extractor in place if it is in good condition and working properly.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Chad Dixon,Long Rifles Inc, is not a friend of mine, but! He said that he would never work on a rifle with a Sako extractor. He stated that he has attended a couple shooters that were injured by them. If you still feel warm and fuzzy about them, you have been made aware of the circumstances.
As far as Remington extractors not being able to be replaced? Brownells has offered them for many years.

Sorry about that, I kind of said that wrong. I meant that once the recessed area of the bolt face that holds the extractor in place blows apart, which happened to me, a factory extractor cannot be re-fitted into the bolt face.

At that point, it has to be reamed out, then have a proper rim diameter bushing installed along with a cut-in style extractor like the Sako or M16

 

[jrm850]

Chad Dixon,Long Rifles Inc, is not a friend of mine, but! He said that he would never work on a rifle with a Sako extractor. He stated that he has attended a couple shooters that were injured by them. If you still feel warm and fuzzy about them, you have been made aware of the circumstances.
As far as Remington extractors not being able to be replaced? Brownells has offered them for many years.

I'm not sure warm and fuzzy is how I feel about them, but I do wonder if the problem isn't exaggerated by lore. Both of them have their downsides to me so I don't really have a favorite between the two. Both Cut into the firing pin cavity. Both remove material close to the lug. Both eject higher than I would like on a remington. A real M16 extractor with the firing pin relief milled in the back has two tiny little pieces of metal hanging on to that roll pin. A poorly installed M16 extractor is probably more likely to have the pin work out than the Sako design. Sakos are a little easier to install. Both pull a case out very well. The only real reason I have for installing either is that they work better than the factory extractor when not using an ejector.

 

[dakor]

With millions of Sako and Tikka Factory rifles out there if the extractor was not safe under normal pressure I think you would hear about it. Will it blow off with a extremely over pressured round sure it will but your going to have gases and pieces of brass coming down the race way when the pressure gets that high. There is no guaranteed safety measure to be taken with a overload other then not to have one.

 

[jrm850]

... If you have a 700 with a Sako extractor on hand, push on that extractor hard with your finger. If you push hard enough, it should pop off. Just make sure you do it over a 5 gallon bucket so you don't lose the spring and plunger when they come flying out. How much pressure do you think you can apply with your finger even when pushing as hard as you can? It's nothing compared to a case blowing out.

I do have one and it is a bitch to get off even with the right tools. There is no possible way you could get this off with your fingers.