Equipment at F class Natls and World.
- Thread starter James A. Kelbly
- Start date
- Status
Va Jim
Gold $$ Contributor
Here GOES.
Individual
Savage Action
Brux Barrel
Precision Rifle&Tool Low Boy Stock
Nightforce NXS
Gunsmith Ray Bowman Precision Rifle & Tool LLC
Team
Savage Action
Krieger Barrel
Precision Rifle & Tool Low Boy Stock
Nightforce Competition
Gunsmith Ray Bowman Precision Rifle & Tool LLC
Ammo Components
Berger
Varget
James Crofts
Proud member Team USA FTR
Individual
Savage Action
Brux Barrel
Precision Rifle&Tool Low Boy Stock
Nightforce NXS
Gunsmith Ray Bowman Precision Rifle & Tool LLC
Team
Savage Action
Krieger Barrel
Precision Rifle & Tool Low Boy Stock
Nightforce Competition
Gunsmith Ray Bowman Precision Rifle & Tool LLC
Ammo Components
Berger
Varget
James Crofts
Proud member Team USA FTR
Finally registered.
Want to say thanks to all for the last three years of shooting F-Class. Congrats to all the shooters and thank you sponsors.
Equipment:
7RSAUM
Bat actions model M
Bartlein barrels
Jewell triggers
chambering by me
stocks built by me
180 hybrids 20 off
H4831SC
Remington brass 7rsaum
NF 15x55 Competition
Looking forward to seeing you all again Gary Evans
Want to say thanks to all for the last three years of shooting F-Class. Congrats to all the shooters and thank you sponsors.
Equipment:
7RSAUM
Bat actions model M
Bartlein barrels
Jewell triggers
chambering by me
stocks built by me
180 hybrids 20 off
H4831SC
Remington brass 7rsaum
NF 15x55 Competition
Looking forward to seeing you all again Gary Evans
Kings X
Gold $$ Contributor
Let me say that my equipment list will never list Nightforce again.
I was one of the twenty. I support Jim Kelbly.
If you want to believe that "conditions" (other than the rain I shot in) caused me to go from the 10 ring to a miss, then a "5" and back to a 10 - go ahead. From knocking rocks around duriing the "blow off" (almost dead calm) to my first sighter being a high 5 at 800 yards during the team match - go ahead.
Viper SS Action
Brux barrel
284 Walker chamber
I was one of the twenty. I support Jim Kelbly.
If you want to believe that "conditions" (other than the rain I shot in) caused me to go from the 10 ring to a miss, then a "5" and back to a 10 - go ahead. From knocking rocks around duriing the "blow off" (almost dead calm) to my first sighter being a high 5 at 800 yards during the team match - go ahead.
Viper SS Action
Brux barrel
284 Walker chamber
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Locksmith said:
Welcome to the forum Gary!
So, I decided to call Nightforce direct on some of these rumors about the Competition scope reliability... since I just bought one. 
I called NF tech support today and asked them if they have any problems to disclose...given all the rumors flying. The gentleman said that Nightforce has yet to receive a single technical support request on their new scopes. He also said the Nightforce sales and marketing team was at the F-class championships the whole two weeks and, once again, did not see or hear any issues. The only complaint they have received......repeatedly.....is about the reticle choices.
I think Kelblys is a class act and sells and makes many fine products. For the life of me, I cannot understand what possessed Mr. Kelbly to post what is essentially and undocumented rumor. In any event, even if my new scope does develop a problem, I cannot think of a better company to call for support than Nightforce....and love their lifetime warranty....
PS. I do have a March and it's fantastic too.
I called NF tech support today and asked them if they have any problems to disclose...given all the rumors flying. The gentleman said that Nightforce has yet to receive a single technical support request on their new scopes. He also said the Nightforce sales and marketing team was at the F-class championships the whole two weeks and, once again, did not see or hear any issues. The only complaint they have received......repeatedly.....is about the reticle choices.I think Kelblys is a class act and sells and makes many fine products. For the life of me, I cannot understand what possessed Mr. Kelbly to post what is essentially and undocumented rumor. In any event, even if my new scope does develop a problem, I cannot think of a better company to call for support than Nightforce....and love their lifetime warranty....
PS. I do have a March and it's fantastic too.
I have heard nothing about '20' NF Competition scopes failing at Nationals/Worlds. I would guess that I'd have heard about a mass failure, but possibly not.
The US F-T/R Team was running 100% NF scopes for the International Team matches. I brought 4 new NF Competition scopes as backups in case there were any issues. We didn't use a single one of them.
I won't even get into the debate about conditions vs scope failure. I saw plenty of condition related vertical out there. Likewise, I saw proven US Team shooters (World Champions, actually) flinging some vertical shots that they would NEVER have fired when they were not fatigued, hot, and mentally drained at the end of an incredibly competitive match. That said, ANY scope is subject to mechanical issues at some point, is it possible that a NF, March, Leupold, Sightron, etc. broke on the line... yup.
My personal equipment list:
Savage F-T/R Rifle
prototype Savage stock (basically a Palma stock with an F-T/R butt 'stuck' on it)
'US Team' Krieger Barrel
New Nightforce Competition scope (in the 'US Team' configuration)
SEB Joy-pod / Duplin Pod
Winchester Brass
Varget
Fed. 210M primers
Berger 185 Juggernauts
Hope this helps,
Darrell Buell
The US F-T/R Team was running 100% NF scopes for the International Team matches. I brought 4 new NF Competition scopes as backups in case there were any issues. We didn't use a single one of them.
I won't even get into the debate about conditions vs scope failure. I saw plenty of condition related vertical out there. Likewise, I saw proven US Team shooters (World Champions, actually) flinging some vertical shots that they would NEVER have fired when they were not fatigued, hot, and mentally drained at the end of an incredibly competitive match. That said, ANY scope is subject to mechanical issues at some point, is it possible that a NF, March, Leupold, Sightron, etc. broke on the line... yup.
My personal equipment list:
Savage F-T/R Rifle
prototype Savage stock (basically a Palma stock with an F-T/R butt 'stuck' on it)
'US Team' Krieger Barrel
New Nightforce Competition scope (in the 'US Team' configuration)
SEB Joy-pod / Duplin Pod
Winchester Brass
Varget
Fed. 210M primers
Berger 185 Juggernauts
Hope this helps,
Darrell Buell
Like others, I heard rumours of a particular make / model of scope failing at Raton, but it wasn't any Nightforce model. The only scope I actually saw fail was a good old NXS as used by the South African F/TR team in the 1,000 yard Day 1 Teams' Match #3. The shooter got 'Ones' at 3 o-clock for shots 7 to 9 and the scope apparently wouldn't respond to windage adjustments. A replacement rifle + NXS was substituted after discussion / agreement with the Line Officer. I do wonder if the scope has self-rectified on its return home to cooler conditions.
I shot the whole fortnight at 20-24X on my scope and while my elevations were generally good, I'd get spells where they'd deteriorate. At that scope magnification setting, I'd see four to six other targets alongside my own, and I'd invariably see the same problems (usually high shots) on others' targets alongside while the condition persisted. I must admit, I'd never even have considered thinking I had a scope problem for an elevation condition in these conditions.
I used a Stolle Atlas; pretty well common or garden Timney trigger which was trouble-free and performed superbly with a very clean release; 32-inch Broughton Heavy Palma profile barrel, 1-10 inch twist 5C rifling; Joe West F-Class stock (similar shallow long forend to the P R & T Low-Boy); Sightron Series III 8-32X56 LRMOA scope, and Dan Pahlobel's FLEX-Pod bi-pod. I also brought a SEB Joy-Pod with me to Raton, but tried the FLEX first as I reckoned it'd be better suited to a rough dirt firing line. It (the FLEX) performed so well sitting on a quarter of a $5 rubber backed carpeted car floor-mat set that I never assembled the Joy-Pod.
Ammo was Lapua Palma brass, CCI-BR4 primer, 155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, IMR-8208 XBR, a combination which produced single-figure ES values.
Of particular interest in the equipment race v results stakes, lie our (GB F/TR team) two wind coaches' (Jane Messer and Paul Kent) rifles. Neither was an F-Class competitor when recruited to the role (Target / Palma Rifle experts) and were provided with the GB F-Class Association's two spare rifles used mainly on 'Come and Shoot F/TR' sessions on occasions like our NRA's national shooting days when Bisley is thrown open to members of the public.
Both were built by top Brit 'Effer' Mik Maksimovic (not Maksimovia as listed in the FCWC results) who is the man behind The Dolphin Gun Company, almost entirely from spare parts and are basically what I believe you guys in the US refer to as 'POS'! Spec is:
old Musgrave RSA Mauser 98 type actions, ex Target Rifle from the 1970s / 80s and still marked 7.62mm.
Recovered heavy profile 32-inch Bartlein barrels.
Recovered and very nondescript stocks, Jane Messer's being a left-hand ex TR stock modified for a RH action to fit, but retaining the left-hand buttstock comb while she is RH!
Original Musgrave triggers still set above the ICFRA TR / Palma 1.5 kg minimum pull weight, ie c. 3.5-4lb.
Sightron SIII 8-32X56 LRTD scopes on Third Eye mounts.
Various secondhand first-generation bi-pods, Jane's rifle using a very light Fito Light-Force as we had BIG trouble making weight with the other bits.
If this pair of rifles were put on the UK market, they'd struggle to realise £500, more likely a lot less, putting the scopes to one side which are worth more than the other bits combined. ie they're $400-500 rifles in US money.
Paul Kent had the highest score in the US Nationals Match #2 with his POS, and had a very good day 1 in the FCWC Individual matches, but suffered on day 2, this subsequently discovered as being down to loose action bolts and was disappointed to only (ONLY !?) come 35th overall F/TR.
Jane took 30th overall F/TR in the individuals with her POS.
It's what we always say, but rather not believe - once a rifle and its ammo shoot well enough in this discipline, the user's wind reading skills count for far more than the smokepole's specification and whether group sizes can be reduced to the very last 0.1-MOA,
Laurie Holland
I shot the whole fortnight at 20-24X on my scope and while my elevations were generally good, I'd get spells where they'd deteriorate. At that scope magnification setting, I'd see four to six other targets alongside my own, and I'd invariably see the same problems (usually high shots) on others' targets alongside while the condition persisted. I must admit, I'd never even have considered thinking I had a scope problem for an elevation condition in these conditions.
I used a Stolle Atlas; pretty well common or garden Timney trigger which was trouble-free and performed superbly with a very clean release; 32-inch Broughton Heavy Palma profile barrel, 1-10 inch twist 5C rifling; Joe West F-Class stock (similar shallow long forend to the P R & T Low-Boy); Sightron Series III 8-32X56 LRMOA scope, and Dan Pahlobel's FLEX-Pod bi-pod. I also brought a SEB Joy-Pod with me to Raton, but tried the FLEX first as I reckoned it'd be better suited to a rough dirt firing line. It (the FLEX) performed so well sitting on a quarter of a $5 rubber backed carpeted car floor-mat set that I never assembled the Joy-Pod.
Ammo was Lapua Palma brass, CCI-BR4 primer, 155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, IMR-8208 XBR, a combination which produced single-figure ES values.
Of particular interest in the equipment race v results stakes, lie our (GB F/TR team) two wind coaches' (Jane Messer and Paul Kent) rifles. Neither was an F-Class competitor when recruited to the role (Target / Palma Rifle experts) and were provided with the GB F-Class Association's two spare rifles used mainly on 'Come and Shoot F/TR' sessions on occasions like our NRA's national shooting days when Bisley is thrown open to members of the public.
Both were built by top Brit 'Effer' Mik Maksimovic (not Maksimovia as listed in the FCWC results) who is the man behind The Dolphin Gun Company, almost entirely from spare parts and are basically what I believe you guys in the US refer to as 'POS'! Spec is:
old Musgrave RSA Mauser 98 type actions, ex Target Rifle from the 1970s / 80s and still marked 7.62mm.
Recovered heavy profile 32-inch Bartlein barrels.
Recovered and very nondescript stocks, Jane Messer's being a left-hand ex TR stock modified for a RH action to fit, but retaining the left-hand buttstock comb while she is RH!
Original Musgrave triggers still set above the ICFRA TR / Palma 1.5 kg minimum pull weight, ie c. 3.5-4lb.
Sightron SIII 8-32X56 LRTD scopes on Third Eye mounts.
Various secondhand first-generation bi-pods, Jane's rifle using a very light Fito Light-Force as we had BIG trouble making weight with the other bits.
If this pair of rifles were put on the UK market, they'd struggle to realise £500, more likely a lot less, putting the scopes to one side which are worth more than the other bits combined. ie they're $400-500 rifles in US money.
Paul Kent had the highest score in the US Nationals Match #2 with his POS, and had a very good day 1 in the FCWC Individual matches, but suffered on day 2, this subsequently discovered as being down to loose action bolts and was disappointed to only (ONLY !?) come 35th overall F/TR.
Jane took 30th overall F/TR in the individuals with her POS.
It's what we always say, but rather not believe - once a rifle and its ammo shoot well enough in this discipline, the user's wind reading skills count for far more than the smokepole's specification and whether group sizes can be reduced to the very last 0.1-MOA,
Laurie Holland
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Laurie said:
Laurie, truer words have never been spoken (written?)
I enjoyed the brief discussion we had in Raton, even though I suspect you do not remember.
At any rate, I love this sort of thread here and was happy to contribute details about my modest rifle, for whatever good that would do for anyone. It’s always fun to compare toys but in the end, you are absolutely correct, it’s how you use these toys that counts. If your rifle/scope/ammo can be relied on to hit the X-ring reliably and 10-ring consistently in perfect conditions, chasing additional precision is misplaced if you can’t read conditions.
What I discovered in Raton during the Nationals is that my rifle was holding elevation quite well throughout the week and after day 1, I was in relay 1 or 5 for the remainder of my time there. The lowest target number I got was 6 on day 4, relay 1 and I shot a 183-1X in atrocious conditions just as the front was moving in. This was with the same rifle/ammo that had shot a 199-7X that very morning, so I’m not blaming the rifle at all.
The lowest I shot that afternoon was a 7 and I did get several 8s. I was getting that some vertical and also I went from holding on one edge of the paper to the other edge of the paper, from one shot to the next. Talk about whiplash. I had to do something to stop the bleeding and decided to only shoot when the wind was from the right, to minimize the terrain effects on the bullet. That help me escape with that 183.
johara1 said:
I had a buyer, and then he backed out saying he wanted the other reticle. Probably didn't want to tell me he read some rumors and got cold feet... Can't blame him, I guess. Shame he passed on a good deal on a very nice scope.
ohiodan
Gold $$ Contributor
Equipment List
Individual match rifle
Carl Bernosky stock, bedding by Alex Sitman
Barnard action, Bartlein barrel
March10-60
Flex-Bipod
Berger 200 hybrids
Team USA rifle
Steve McGee stock, bedding by Alex Sitman
Barnard action, Krieger barrel
Nightforce 15-55 Competition
Flex-Bipod
Berger 185 juggernauts
No problems with either scope
Dan Pohlabel, Proud member of Team USA 4-man Rutland Team
Individual match rifle
Carl Bernosky stock, bedding by Alex Sitman
Barnard action, Bartlein barrel
March10-60
Flex-Bipod
Berger 200 hybrids
Team USA rifle
Steve McGee stock, bedding by Alex Sitman
Barnard action, Krieger barrel
Nightforce 15-55 Competition
Flex-Bipod
Berger 185 juggernauts
No problems with either scope
Dan Pohlabel, Proud member of Team USA 4-man Rutland Team
Bear with me... got stung by a bee yesterday, my right wrist & forearm are kinda swollen making keyboarding a challenge.
Too, contributors are providing all kinds of info that makes fitting things to a format a little tedious.
This is taking a little more time than I'd anticipated, but I'll keep at it as my free time permits.
Stay tuned....
Too, contributors are providing all kinds of info that makes fitting things to a format a little tedious.
This is taking a little more time than I'd anticipated, but I'll keep at it as my free time permits.
Stay tuned....
gaintwist
Silver $$ Contributor
James Kelbly,
Thank you for you courageous reporting of what you heard in Raton. You have taken plenty of flak. Yes, it was just verbal comments you registered but I have heard the same from plenty of others that are top shooters to think it is just a coincidence. I just wish I had the opportunity to have read it before I paid full price for the NF that I will never have any confidence in again.
-lige
Thank you for you courageous reporting of what you heard in Raton. You have taken plenty of flak. Yes, it was just verbal comments you registered but I have heard the same from plenty of others that are top shooters to think it is just a coincidence. I just wish I had the opportunity to have read it before I paid full price for the NF that I will never have any confidence in again.
-lige
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