Ending the question of how many record shots were fired
- Thread starter Rochelle Jerry
- Start date
Some ranges do better than others. A lot of it’s on the stat crew, before the referees are involved. Close to 10 percent Dq’ed at one match is way high. One time is too many.
Bart
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Terry
Gold $$ Contributor
Plugs will screw you! Once a hole has been plugged, there is no way to prove that there are two shots there. Measuring the holes in at least two directions will prove it.
Here is an analysis that @newbieshooter sent me. It confirms what you said. That means I was robbed out of an X....
BTW, these were Hammers....
newbieshooter
:-)
Here is an analysis that @newbieshooter sent me. It confirms what you said. That means I was robbed out of an X....
BTW, these were Hammers....
this was just an learning exercise for myself - trying to see if I could tell which is the double.
I'm with @Rochelle Jerry - i'd like to learn. It's still hard for me to tell.
Do the experienced refs look on the back side too?
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CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes. We look on the backside.
Then, after making a decision, we sometimes get "kicked" there.
Hey guys ....my intent by starting this decision was NOT to stir S..t .....sorry if I did!!! .... it was to start a dialogue with fellow shooters that would possibly come to a solution to a .... hang your head and walk away moment that your still, at this moment... wondering what the TRUTH was. A lot of things are beyond a humans eye...... just looking for solutions
You didn't stir anything. You asked an excellent question and we have had some excellent answers. Newbieshooter's red circles are VERY revealing, and Bart saw it immediately.
Don’t worry about it. TomE got his feelings hurt over my comment. Its a real Problem and its not going to get better, unless it gets address.
Bart
You can manipulate Ballistic-X to help find a double by using it to measure individual bullet holes (as if they were a group). I can’t get a picture to post right now but if you have the app you can play with it following the directions I posted below.
For Example a 600 yard Target
1 When it asks to select 1 inch reference. Select the top and bottom of a single bullet hole.
2. Select 100 yards (not 600).
3. Select .243
4. Select aiming (anywhere out of the way)
5. It will say Add Impacts. Now you’ll have a small reticle that fits well inside a single bullet hole. Add impacts all the way around the outline of the bullet hole. Basically measuring an individual bullet hole like a group.
6. Select Next for a measurement
The bullet hole close to 3oclock on the X ring is a good bit larger than the rest.
The way I shoot, if they only see four they just assume I missed the paper.
I have brought this subject up before. Some of the responses sounded like they thought I was way off base. The truth is LR groups have never been smaller. I doubt many would challenge that.
To have a rifle shooting really small I believe some amount of positive compensation must be taking place as part of the rifle’s “tune”. The interesting thing about positive compensation is that bullets on different trajectories can end up in the same hole. They may converge and end up in the same hole at the target but before they hit the target they may well have been on different trajectories. Thus, after the target the trajectories should diverge. It is not uncommon for a bullet to drop up to one inch in the last yard it travels before impacting the target at 1K.
I plan on testing with a stationary backer 3 feet behind the target, then measuring both and comparing the two. Maybe I’ll be fortunate enough to have a couple touching but to measure the groups to see differences they shouldn’t have to be touching.
This may not work as well at 600 as bullet drop is less severe per yard.
Has anyone tried this? If it works, it would be an inexpensive solution.
Dave
To have a rifle shooting really small I believe some amount of positive compensation must be taking place as part of the rifle’s “tune”. The interesting thing about positive compensation is that bullets on different trajectories can end up in the same hole. They may converge and end up in the same hole at the target but before they hit the target they may well have been on different trajectories. Thus, after the target the trajectories should diverge. It is not uncommon for a bullet to drop up to one inch in the last yard it travels before impacting the target at 1K.
I plan on testing with a stationary backer 3 feet behind the target, then measuring both and comparing the two. Maybe I’ll be fortunate enough to have a couple touching but to measure the groups to see differences they shouldn’t have to be touching.
This may not work as well at 600 as bullet drop is less severe per yard.
Has anyone tried this? If it works, it would be an inexpensive solution.
Dave
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Do think your backer idea has merit. Now is it practical?
You need the space and a second target line behind the front target line. if you can do that remember that your target crew then must change the backing targets along with the front line main targets. You get multiple shots in those backers and it will be impossible to see just what is where.
Our target crew at Manatee cannot do such. it is time-consuming, expensive and a bit confusing to those involved. Then that backing would have to be brought to the scoring room and included with each suspect target.
I have now used a simpler variation of your idea at Manatee the last two months in sanctioned IBS shoots. Last month we had four four-target targets. Last week we had three. All were resolved with no hassle or objection because I had small 12" by 12" 1/4" removable coroplast sheets under the main targets that can be removed right with the target and taken together to the scorer.
As the bullets pass through the paper they tend to move around in the coroplast backing showing a pattern of either or single or multiple hits in a hole. When the target crew sees there are only four holes in the target they staple that target into the backing piece and carefully remove BOTH together. That way the target holes are lined up with holes in the backer. That together goes to the scorer for examination and later use by referees and after that the shooter. New backers are stuck up ( just using one or two staples) for the next relay.
So far NONE of the four-hole targets has gone to referee involvement. All could be solved by the scorer. All have been agreed to by the shooter.
The expense of sourcing and then cutting/stapling the backers has not been very expensive or added much time to the target crew duties. Is this ThE solution? More shoots and experience may tell.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I'm going to toss a thought in here as an F class shooter because they objections that some of us have voiced in the past have been noted by posters above.
For the record, I personally think that the current E-targets have no place in HP competition, be it F class or otherwise, for several reasons; one being in our sport they are the only scoring device on the range you can't appeal. I think they are great for individual load work and practice.
In the application noted here they (open mic systems) would probably work extremely well. Certainly not to score but to verify the number of shots on target. In your case I would think you would not use them except on targets in question. The chances of a dropped shot on that particular target extremely pretty low. These days the ShotMarker and the Silver Mt. targets don't miss many except when they are used in Service Rifle rapids when there are so many shockwaves hitting the plane of the sensors at almost the same time. I've shot on a lot of e targets in the last 2 yrs and I can't think of a single shot of mine that was dropped.
Just a data point from someone outside of your sport.
For the record, I personally think that the current E-targets have no place in HP competition, be it F class or otherwise, for several reasons; one being in our sport they are the only scoring device on the range you can't appeal. I think they are great for individual load work and practice.
In the application noted here they (open mic systems) would probably work extremely well. Certainly not to score but to verify the number of shots on target. In your case I would think you would not use them except on targets in question. The chances of a dropped shot on that particular target extremely pretty low. These days the ShotMarker and the Silver Mt. targets don't miss many except when they are used in Service Rifle rapids when there are so many shockwaves hitting the plane of the sensors at almost the same time. I've shot on a lot of e targets in the last 2 yrs and I can't think of a single shot of mine that was dropped.
Just a data point from someone outside of your sport.
Resistance of the plug and how it drops in the hole will tell you the difference. one as obvious as the target on here you don't need anything, a blind man can see it and I qualify for that.... I been screwed by a lot more than a plug...... jim
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