Ending the question of how many record shots were fired

[BartsBullets]

I think it is funny (haha) that for several years I've read posts by F_Class participants on here and other forums concerning the "terrible" issues with E-Targets NOT picking up all a shooters rounds fired.
Now, all the sudden, we see some of those same people extolling the virtue and the validity of the same targets. Yes, I know there is a difference in what Benchrest shooters expect from the system and what F-Class shooters expect but, in the end, the yak will be the same.
MD: "you were DQ'd for only four on target."
Shooter: "I am sure all five are there! The ET will verify that!"
MD: "ET only shows four sir."
Shooter: "That ET is junk!!!"
Also, everyone shooting IBS should remember one thing. It is the FRONT of the target that counts.

Shot Marker is just one possible tool. It’s expensive but some clubs already have them. I will say this; IF shot marker only shows 4 shots, and the Statistician only see’s 4 shots, and Three referees only see 4 shots! Probably was 4 shots!

Shot Marker wouldn’t be the end all but it could be handy for those clubs who have them.

The way I see it we need to try and fix the problem from several angles. First is at the target. Is there a way to help identify 5 shots. What Larry is doing by adding a coraplast backer is a good idea and start. David Matthew’s is experimenting with a piece of coraplast some inches behind the target and then a piece of backer paper, To see if that helps to identify doubles. I’ve been told by Steve Hoskins that he had experimented with a heavier paper placed behind the target fand that it worked great.

The next thing is to try and come up with better methods and techniques to assist range personnel and referees to identify doubles. The current reticles that are used aren’t up to the task on a really tight double.

A couple of things that can help. Take a picture with your smart phone and blow it up. Being able to enlarge the image of a bullet hole up to about two inches makes it a lot easier to find a double.

Also the App Ballistic-X looks like it can help. By changing the parameters around during setup you can use the app to measure each bullet hole individually. You can also use it to measure the knock out hole the bullet makes. I’ve played with it a good bit and it helps.

Any other good ideas are welcome.

Bart

 

[MattPeetz]

I think it is funny (haha) that for several years I've read posts by F_Class participants on here and other forums concerning the "terrible" issues with E-Targets NOT picking up all a shooters rounds fired.
Now, all the sudden, we see some of those same people extolling the virtue and the validity of the same targets. Yes, I know there is a difference in what Benchrest shooters expect from the system and what F-Class shooters expect but, in the end, the yak will be the same.
MD: "you were DQ'd for only four on target."
Shooter: "I am sure all five are there! The ET will verify that!"
MD: "ET only shows four sir."
Shooter: "That ET is junk!!!"
Also, everyone shooting IBS should remember one thing. It is the FRONT of the target that counts.

I would say that’s because there’s been one maker of ET’s working with the shooters

 

[shoot4fun]

I would say that’s because there’s been one maker of ET’s working with the shooters

I live very near the AL CMP range and, to my knowledge, all their rifle targets are ET.
Over the last few years I've heard story after story about failures with their system. At one time I heard they replaced it with another brand but they continue to have "problems" with F-Class shooters complaining about ET failures to pick up shots.
I have heard it said each unit costs in the area of $1,000 each. If so, that is gonna be a tough nut for most IBS clubs to crack. Then there is the question of powering them. As I have never shot over an ET I have no idea what it takes but I can do the math and tell you out will put quite a few IBS long range matches out of the game.
As @BartsBullets says, ET is only one way and we should be experimenting with others for sure.

 

[quartersnatcher]

I have been competing in 600 yard Benchrest since the first IBS match in 2004. The game has changed a lot in the past 16 years due to equipment and knowledge of the shooter. In my opinion moving backers or a shot verification will be needed as accuracy improves. I have had 4 targets disqualified due to 4 visible holes in target could not find 5th shot. In 2006 at the First 600 yard IBS Nationals in South Dakota my last target of the match was questioned about 4 on but luckily one bullet was identified as two shots.
Luckily this went in my favor but I could have lost the Nationals due to a judgement call of the referee’s during that match.

my 2 cents
Joel Kendrick

 

[jackieschmidt]

just some info.

The reason many clubs stopped shooting Short Range Group and opted for Varmint for Score is because of the headaches maintaining a viable moving backer system.
You can’t have a match if nobody wants to put one on.
Of course, a moving backer is a necessity in 100/200, as sub .200 moa groups are common.
if you start demanding moving backers at 600, the guys running the matches might say......”“Fine, you put on the Matches“.

 

[group therapy]

another first line of defense may be for someone (not me ) to create a SMALL one sheet "how to be a judge at a br match" of what to look for in the event of this situation. I didn't look at the petals in the pics above, didnt know to and didnt think about it. some of the judges at these matches have NEVER judged a group before and may not know what to look for ( we dont have the benefit of experience). like taking a pic and blowing it up on your phone, looking at the petals, if its a dq get more than one opinion if feasible. just my .02 and im new to this stuff

 

[jackieschmidt]

An experienced group measurer knows to place the measuring reticle in the circle of the bullet hole to where it is dead even all the way around. There is a certain amount of judgment involved. Take three shooters, hand them an official measuring tool, tell them to measure a group, and odds are all three will vary to some degree.
At matches, one person usually does the measuring. If he is measuring large or small is of little consequence as long as he uses the same technique on every target. That days resilts will be consistent.
Also when the targets are hung after each relay, a shooter can put up $10 and have his group remeasured if he believes there has been an error.. If the measurement comes out .010 smaller, he gets that score and his $10 back. If you want to challenge another shooters target, you are required to put up $50.
For record considerations, The NBRSA has a records committee made up of three experienced shooters who independently verify the measurements on any targets that are considered for a record. The actual official measurement will be the average of the three.
I rarely measure at t practice. I know when a rifle is working, and when it’s not.

 

[TrxR]

What tools are they using to measure these groups? Is there a different one for 6mm or 30cal? Anywhere I could look online and see one?

Thanks

 

[drumcorpschamp]

Here is a target that 4 sets of eyes looked at to confirm 5 shots.
Jerry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Thats a tough one^^

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What tools are they using to measure these groups? Is there a different one for 6mm or 30cal? Anywhere I could look online and see one?

Thanks

Measure Groups Precisely with Neil Jones Tool « Daily Bulletin

If you have a digital camera or scanner, you can measure your shot groups easily with the FREE On-Target software (read our On-Target Software Review). However, not many people want to lug a laptop to the range just to measure their groups.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[BartsBullets]

T

Here is a target that 4 sets of eyes looked at to confirm 5 shots.
Jerry

They made a good call!
Bart

 

[DaveTooley]

Here is a target that 4 sets of eyes looked at to confirm 5 shots.
Jerry

I've measured a lot of targets and some very small targets. Under magnification it was a pretty easy call to see 3 in that one hole. I'll add I can just about determine the sequence of shots. The lower shot at 5 o'clock followed the top shot. Less definition of the hole on the right side.
It takes good light, magnification, experience and a goal of ruling for the shooter if at all possible.

 

[DaveTooley]

Has anyone tried stationary backers?

 

[drumcorpschamp]

I've measured a lot of targets and some very small targets. Under magnification it was a pretty easy call to see 3 in that one hole.
It takes good light, magnification, experience and a goal of ruling for the shooter if at all possible.

Agreed Dave. Light, magnification and a reticle made calling this target a no brainer.
One person wouldn't commit, but three more saw it pretty clearly.
Jerry

 

[Falfan2017]

If 5 targets have 4 holes in them in a 30 person 8 target match that’s an incidence rate of 2%. 2% per target is enough that if you shoot enough matches you have a really good chance of having one dqed for 4 shots eventually.
I’ve fired at least a couple thousand rounds at shot markers in practice and matches and there’s only 1 shot that I had that didn’t register. .05%. So the chance that there’s a 4 shot targ and the shot marker just happens to not register is .001%. If that happens to you it’s just your unlucky day but it’s way better than 1 or 2 targets every 100 getting dqed.
Also if you have a crossfire you may be able to tell based on the speed on target which round doesn’t belong.

 

[Rochelle Jerry]

If 5 targets have 4 holes in them in a 30 person 8 target match that’s an incidence rate of 2%. 2% per target is enough that if you shoot enough matches you have a really good chance of having one dqed for 4 shots eventually.
I’ve fired at least a couple thousand rounds at shot markers in practice and matches and there’s only 1 shot that I had that didn’t register. .05%. So the chance that there’s a 4 shot targ and the shot marker just happens to not register is .001%. If that happens to you it’s just your unlucky day but it’s way better than 1 or 2 targets every 100 getting dqed.
Also if you have a crossfire you may be able to tell based on the speed on target which round doesn’t belong.

 

[Rochelle Jerry]

Thank you Falfan2017. I didn’t know the statistics but I knew the odds would be better than we have now. I personally have only had 1or 2 missed shots out of thousands that I’ve shot on my personal shotmarker. I’m convinced that warped frames and canted mic holders are to blame for club malfunctions . Wood frames will twist after a good rain and drying

 

[Falfan2017]

Maybe we’ll finally figure out if this is a 3 or 5 shot group.

 

[shoot4fun]

another first line of defense may be for someone (not me ) to create a SMALL one sheet "how to be a judge at a br match" of what to look for in the event of this situation. I didn't look at the petals in the pics above, didnt know to and didnt think about it. some of the judges at these matches have NEVER judged a group before and may not know what to look for ( we dont have the benefit of experience). like taking a pic and blowing it up on your phone, looking at the petals, if its a dq get more than one opinion if feasible. just my .02 and im new to this stuff

First, if asked and you aren't comfortable with measuring group size or determining how many shots are there you should politely decline to be a referee.
Second, there is a method to the madness. There are three (plus a normally chosen alternate) referees, usually appointed before the shooting starts. Those three are charged with many different responsibilities (one of which is actually determining shot count). When called to make a ruling each makes their own ruling without any help from the other two. There is NO discussion before and the final decision is based on the majority ruling. Referees also have no idea who's target they are concerned with I would disqualify myself if something or someone told me in advance who it was in question. Therefore I do not "look harder" or give benefit of the doubt because of who the target belongs to.
I do not know all the IBS LR rules. I saw someone DQ'd from a Nationals based on the "status" of the person filing the challenge. The incident was based on said individual's desire to sway match outcome toward another shooter. It was disgusting and two fine people walked away never to return. I hope to never see another walk away, especially because of a single "missing" shot.