Elk calibers

[Mulligan]

Oops, typo on that. You said 2 inches at 400 yards.

Read the warnings at the link below, I think we just started our 3rd season.

https://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=COZ010&warncounty=COC037&firewxzone=COZ205&local_place1=Vail CO&product1=Hazardous+Weather+Outlook&lat=39.6453&lon=-106.3862

Just wondering what your hold would be in these weather conditions after climbing a modest 2000 feet in elevation and using a “good prop.”

My point is, elk “hunting conditions” are rarely “flatland eastern shooting conditions” and this rarely is taken into account in these discussions.

Don’t worry about Matt, he is good to go.
CW

 

[drover]

About 15 years ago I had a friend ask me to recommend a caliber for an elk rifle for his 15 year old son. The son had shot a bit, but not a lot, of high-power rifle, I recommended that he get him a 270 in whichever brand of rifle he liked best. The father took the son to a regional chain sporting goods store and proceeded to take the advice of the salesman who convinced him that it took at least a 300 magnum to kill an elk (it is doubtful that the salesman had ever shot an elk, but that is another story). The father bought the latest and greatest magnum - a 300 Ultra Magnum - by the time the rifle was sighted in the son was so recoil shy that he refused to go elk hunting and to this day has not shot another high-power rifle. There is no doubt in my mind that if the father would have purchased him a milder recoiling rifle we would probably have another elk hunter in our midst but the magnum fascination ruined that for him.

drover

 

[ratbuster]

Reading comprehension needs some work in this thread. No where have I read anyone say that any caliber or even a sharp stick cant kill an elk. What those experienced elk hunters are trying to get across is that elk are tougher than most other animals, have very tough shoulder bones on big bulls, and larger calibers will do the job when you hit those heavy bone when smaller calibers may fail. Making the argument that a cave man can kill an elk with a stick does not mean a 130 grain bullet will penetrate a bulls shoulder blade at 600 yards. So far as shot placement being important, that goes without saying, but most of us have made a less than perfect shot in the field. I think this topic gets emotional because most of us have seen some nasty stuff that a larger caliber would have prevented. No cartridge can fix a gut shot, but a bigger one can fix a shoulder shot.

I've read and heard varying estimates of energy required to kill (foot pounds) elk. The answer to most complex questions is usually shrouded by the ubiquitous "it depends". My question is assuming you are using a bullet of proper construction that holds together upon impact with bone how much energy would you need to get through that shoulder bone of a 600lb elk?

 

[JRS]

I've read and heard varying estimates of energy required to kill (foot pounds) elk. The answer to most complex questions is usually shrouded by the ubiquitous "it depends". My question is assuming you are using a bullet of proper construction that holds together upon impact with bone how much energy would you need to get through that shoulder bone of a 600lb elk?

1200 foot pounds of energy is the norm for elk. You want to avoid that big bone if at all possible.

 

[ratbuster]

1200 foot pounds of energy is the norm for elk. You want to avoid that big bone if at all possible.

I'm sorry but that does not answer my question.

 

[JRS]

I'm sorry but that does not answer my question.

It depends on impact velocity. There is more to it than energy alone.

I'm sorry but that does not answer my question.

There is more to it than energy alone. Impact velocity plays a big part in impact energy. This is why PO Ackley was a big fan of smaller and faster calibers for hunting in North America. The smaller diameter encounters much less friction to penetrate.

 

[JimT]

It depends on impact velocity. There is more to it than energy alone.

There is more to it than energy alone. Impact velocity plays a big part in impact energy. This is why PO Ackley was a big fan of smaller and faster calibers for hunting in North America.

You might want to refer to the Killing Power chapter of Ackley’s book where Paul Von Rosenberg states “In fact, I will go so far as to argue that velocity, per se, has absolutely nothing to do with wounding capability!”

Of course, velocity plays a role in the calculation of energy, but that is the extent of its consideration. Energy kills not velocity.

 

[Bc'z]

I've read and heard varying estimates of energy required to kill (foot pounds) elk. The answer to most complex questions is usually shrouded by the ubiquitous "it depends". My question is assuming you are using a bullet of proper construction that holds together upon impact with bone how much energy would you need to get through that shoulder bone of a 600lb elk?

The easiest answer is not to shoot em in the shoulder.
And the easiest way to not hit that shoulder is get closer.
Think about it, your humping up n down mountains with an extra 25lbs of gear.
Hunting pack, rifle, binoculars, range finder.
Now let's add in the effects on your body. Fatigue, lactic acid in your muscles, adrenaline coursing through your veins.
And the excitement of the shot opportunity.
Yeah you can use a heavy magnum to try n compensate for all those outside influences but that's just stupid IMHO.
Remember we are responsible for every bullet we fire, including the ones at animals.
Elk are majestic creatures and deserve to be treated as such.
So if the sport your in is long range killing, stick to prairie dogs.
So in conclusion I may never kill n elk, because I refuse to take less than optimal shots, or use a rifle that beats the shit outta me. Hunt hard, get close, kill clean.
If that's to much to ask, stay home!

 

[Mulligan]

This dandy book from Mr Arnold has a relative performance index listed on pages 83-84. I highly recommend this work to all hunters, it really has great information and a useful load development section for hunting rifles. He references John Taylor’s “Knockout Blow” and John Wootter’s “Leathality Index”. Mr Arnold uses the “Arnold Performance Index” (RPI) values to compare cartridges for different species.











This is good stuff and as you can tell, several folks who know a bit more than most of us about this subject have put a lot of energy into developing a way to compare cartridges and target game species.
CW

Edited to include link below

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0883173212/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[JRS]

You might want to refer to the Killing Power chapter of Ackley’s book where Paul Von Rosenberg states “In fact, I will go so far as to argue that velocity, per se, has absolutely nothing to do with wounding capability!”

Of course, velocity plays a role in the calculation of energy, but that is the extent of its consideration. Energy kills not velocity.

With penetration, in any type of material, energy is not a predictor. Velocity and bullet construction are the predictor. Quoting energy work well for comparing different loads. The problem with measuring wound potential cannot be done with energy. After all, Newton's law describes forces, not energy, and velocity the important aspect because it drives the bullet. We've come a long way with modern bullets and their construction. A faster and smaller diameter bullet penetrate easier and deeper when impact velocity is equal to a larger diameter bullet. Times and bullet construction has changed. This isn't the 1950's.

 

[ttfreestyle]

Practice in the summer shooting and you will know your comfort zone. Everyone’s is different, shoot from different positions like off your pack from the ground and not all from a bench then you will have a better understanding of YOUR level of accuracy and at what distance you are comfortable with taking a shot. Shoot in the wind and messy conditions as well. Shot placement trumps all else so be honest with yourself. I can cold bore steel at 1000 on my range at times but I’m not comfortable taking that shot on animals even though my caliber will carry the energy. Practice. Troy

 

[ratbuster]

Nobody wants to hit an elk in the shoulder but anyone can miss in the field. Planning for worst case scenario is a good thing. I realize energy is foot pounds is not a definitive way to measure killing effectiveness but I believe it can offer a reasonable prediction of bone penetration.

 

[Bc'z]

Practice in the summer shooting and you will know your comfort zone. Everyone’s is different, shoot from different positions like off your pack from the ground and not all from a bench then you will have a better understanding of YOUR level of accuracy and at what distance you are comfortable with taking a shot. Shoot in the wind and messy conditions as well. Shot placement trumps all else so be honest with yourself. I can cold bore steel at 1000 on my range at times but I’m not comfortable taking that shot on animals even though my caliber will carry the energy. Practice. Troy

I'd like to add, when the line goes hot, step back to your vehical n do some exercises get your heart rate up , now mount your rifle and take a few shots. I think everyone will be surprised at how poor of a shot they are.

 

[JFrank]

Thanks Mulligan
Good read
I didn't expect it to cover all the modern cartridges yet it gives me a pretty good idea of where I personally would want to be.

One of the first rules is define your mission is it not?
Good hunting to all
Jim

 

[JRS]

Though it has nothing to do with firearms, we can look at archery equipment the same way. You will shoot a compound bow with much more velocity than I can with a longbow shooting the same weight arrow with the same draw weight. Even though they leave the bow with essentially the same amount of energy. Due to the increase in velocity, the compound bow shoots flatter, faster, farther and the arrow impacts with much more energy due to the velocity at impact.

 

[Bc'z]

Though it has nothing to do with firearms, we can look at archery equipment the same way. You will shoot a compound bow with much more velocity than I can with a longbow shooting the same weight arrow with the same draw weight. Even though they leave the bow with essentially the same amount of energy. Due to the increase in velocity, the compound bow shoots flatter, faster, farther and the arrow impacts with much more energy due to the velocity at impact.

Now let's add aluminum vs carbon arrows.
Aluminum hits harder due to the mass for correct spine. Whereas a carbon can give better penetration do to its slender design.
Just as the bullets mentioned above.
And yes I shot aluminum until a couple years ago. Thinking I needed that extra 12-15 ft lbs
Of energy. When in reality its penetration I want.

 

[ryanjay11]

 

[Bc'z]

View attachment 1072698

If you use a pistol to get your point across you could be missing a few elk seasons.

 

[ryanjay11]

whoosh

 

[JRS]

If you've ever been hit with a baseball and softball, you'll quickly realize just how much difference there is in impact velocity even though the softball is bigger in diameter and heavier.