Electronic Targets: The Cons

[SWRichmond]

What's killing me about this thread, is the nitpicking over e-target functional issues, that in the end, are really no different from common issues with manually pulled targets, which conveniently gets forgotten in the quest to deride e-target because: A. they are new, and B. they are electronic. People fear change, that's for sure....

[snip]

At a minimum, E-Targets are *no worse* than manual pullers and, in my experience so far, much more consistent.

Do you work in IT, sir?

Mechanical targets can be fixed by any mechanic; routine maintenance can be done by almost anyone. No special skills are required for using a roller brush and wallpaper paste.

What kind of maintenance agreements do you get with electronic targets? What kind of service level agreement (trouble response time, etc)? How long is the service life of the equipment? Will the company stay in business that long?

Interestingly, readerange.org home page right now shows a picture labeled "typical Shooters display" and the picture shows "server not responding". Is this an error, or are they trying to tell us something?

 

[OldManTA]

What's killing me about this thread, is the nitpicking over e-target functional issues, that in the end, are really no different from common issues with manually pulled targets, which conveniently gets forgotten in the quest to deride e-target because: A. they are new, and B. they are electronic. People fear change, that's for sure.

- anyone here been the victim of slow target service? I have. Many times.

- anyone here here been the victim of a scorer who missed a shot (an X maybe?), causing you to have to re-shoot that shot, when you've got a full record of shot brass in your case? How does it feel when that make-up shot comes up a '9' or worse? I have. Again, more than once.

- anyone here been the victim of a missed shot by the puller, with the target coming up a miss? I have not, but I've witnessed it personally. Multiple times. One time it was a fresh target, so they counted the holes after the fact. The other, it was SOL because the target had multiple shooters on it. The other fun one is when the puller forgets to paste a shot and finds two shots on target a couple shots down the line...

- I sure hear a lot of people waxing nostalgic about their time in the pits - at the same time, I sure hear a lot of bitching when the rain drip line is directly above your head, or the sun is beating down directly on you while you are down in the pits. I also hear a lot of bitching depending on which relay you get. Usually Relay 3 who gets to put targets up and take them down again.

Do e-targets miss shots? Maybe - I've never encountered it, but there's a non-zero chance of it happening. I've heard from experienced shooters that it happened to them, so I won't dismiss it. Does an e-target mis-report a shot on target (like, a "miss" when you've centered up the X-ring?). Again, I'm sure the chance is non-zero, but I would bet the likelihood is far smaller than a puller who can't find a shot on the paper.

The red-X is annoying, I'll give you all that. But, in the end, it's generally no worse (and happens less often) than the guy who gives you 15 - 20 second service when you are shooting X's.

I do miss having spotters to look at on other targets...

At a minimum, E-Targets are *no worse* than manual pullers and, in my experience so far, much more consistent.

Jay,
The SMT screens at Lodi had the option where one could punch the target number and the screen would show the adjacent targets and the last shot on each along the bottom of the screen. Some of the younger fellows used that. I was so busy watching what was going on down range I didn't need the additional information.
Tom Alves

 

[OldManTA]

So did you shoot 1,2,3 or was the rotation the same as if you were pulling and doing pit changes?

We had three relays and electronic targets.
TA

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Do you work in IT, sir?

Mechanical targets can be fixed by any mechanic; routine maintenance can be done by almost anyone. No special skills are required for using a roller brush and wallpaper paste.

What kind of maintenance agreements do you get with electronic targets? What kind of service level agreement (trouble response time, etc)? How long is the service life of the equipment? Will the company stay in business that long?

Interestingly, readerange.org home page right now shows a picture labeled "typical Shooters display" and the picture shows "server not responding". Is this an error, or are they trying to tell us something?

You're barking up the wrong tree. I don't do "IT". I design and build global networks, infrastructure, and software systems to support space operations for a space-based imaging company, if that's what you are asking, but I'm not sure how that's relevant. You're not going to bark me down with trivial technical speak, if that's what you are working at.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay,
The SMT screens at Lodi had the option where one could punch the target number and the screen would show the adjacent targets and the last shot on each along the bottom of the screen. Some of the younger fellows used that. I was so busy watching what was going on down range I didn't need the additional information.
Tom Alves

Yeah, I tried that out at Nationals last year. It's not really the same level of feedback though. After trying it a few times I gave it up.

It's one of those things that is neither bad or good I guess - it's just a change to get used to.

 

[243Mendoza]

I will make a dangerous assumption to answer @Dos XX

I would assume that the shooting rotation would assume a 123,123,123 format with e-targets. That woul whittle down the amount of free time to a half hour.

Just imagine, you could reload or clean your barrel between relays just like Benchrest.

Or you can do a lot of BSing with your fellow competitors similar to the days of paid pullers.

 

[500Stroker]

I haven't shot on electronic targets, so I can't comment on how they work or don't work, and I don't know what a red x is. I am planning to shoot at Lodi this year, so I will get a chance to form my own opinion. I have had slow pullers. I have had scorer issues. They are frustrating.

My question about what do you do while you aren't pulling targets is a real question. There is a rhythm to a match. You are either shooting, pulling, or scoring. There is no down time. You can get the range at 7:00 am and finish at 3 or 4 pm and it goes by quickly because you are constantly doing something. Your head is in the shooting game all the time. I am not sure I want an hour plus of down time while I would normally be in the pits pulling 3.

That said, I shot a 2 day match this weekend in the heat. I would have been happy to forgo the last trip to the pits on Sunday.

I have only shot SMT electronic targets at Big Piney so I cant speak for how other clubs operate. To make a long explanation short, there is very little down time. We still manually score each shooter while he or she shoots. Instead of looking at a marked target down range thru a spotting scope you view the target on a tablet placed on the shooters bench, every shooter has scoring duty. Because Big Piney only has five SMT's they rotate shooters very quickly leaving very little time to stand around. The small amount of free time you do have I use to judge the wind and what my competitors are doing.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

What's killing me about this thread, is the nitpicking over e-target functional issues, that in the end, are really no different from common issues with manually pulled targets, which conveniently gets forgotten in the quest to deride e-target because: A. they are new, and B. they are electronic. People fear change, that's for sure.

- anyone here been the victim of slow target service? I have. Many times.

- anyone here here been the victim of a scorer who missed a shot (an X maybe?), causing you to have to re-shoot that shot, when you've got a full record of shot brass in your case? How does it feel when that make-up shot comes up a '9' or worse? I have. Again, more than once.

- anyone here been the victim of a missed shot by the puller, with the target coming up a miss? I have not, but I've witnessed it personally. Multiple times. One time it was a fresh target, so they counted the holes after the fact. The other, it was SOL because the target had multiple shooters on it. The other fun one is when the puller forgets to paste a shot and finds two shots on target a couple shots down the line...

- I sure hear a lot of people waxing nostalgic about their time in the pits - at the same time, I sure hear a lot of bitching when the rain drip line is directly above your head, or the sun is beating down directly on you while you are down in the pits. I also hear a lot of bitching depending on which relay you get. Usually Relay 3 who gets to put targets up and take them down again.

Do e-targets miss shots? Maybe - I've never encountered it, but there's a non-zero chance of it happening. I've heard from experienced shooters that it happened to them, so I won't dismiss it. Does an e-target mis-report a shot on target (like, a "miss" when you've centered up the X-ring?). Again, I'm sure the chance is non-zero, but I would bet the likelihood is far smaller than a puller who can't find a shot on the paper.

The red-X is annoying, I'll give you all that. But, in the end, it's generally no worse (and happens less often) than the guy who gives you 15 - 20 second service when you are shooting X's.

I do miss having spotters to look at on other targets...

At a minimum, E-Targets are *no worse* than manual pullers and, in my experience so far, much more consistent.

What's killing me about this thread, is the nitpicking over e-target functional issues, that in the end, are really no different from common issues with manually pulled targets, which conveniently gets forgotten in the quest to deride e-target because: A. they are new, and B. they are electronic. People fear change, that's for sure.

- anyone here been the victim of slow target service? I have. Many times.

- anyone here here been the victim of a scorer who missed a shot (an X maybe?), causing you to have to re-shoot that shot, when you've got a full record of shot brass in your case? How does it feel when that make-up shot comes up a '9' or worse? I have. Again, more than once.

- anyone here been the victim of a missed shot by the puller, with the target coming up a miss? I have not, but I've witnessed it personally. Multiple times. One time it was a fresh target, so they counted the holes after the fact. The other, it was SOL because the target had multiple shooters on it. The other fun one is when the puller forgets to paste a shot and finds two shots on target a couple shots down the line...

- I sure hear a lot of people waxing nostalgic about their time in the pits - at the same time, I sure hear a lot of bitching when the rain drip line is directly above your head, or the sun is beating down directly on you while you are down in the pits. I also hear a lot of bitching depending on which relay you get. Usually Relay 3 who gets to put targets up and take them down again.

Do e-targets miss shots? Maybe - I've never encountered it, but there's a non-zero chance of it happening. I've heard from experienced shooters that it happened to them, so I won't dismiss it. Does an e-target mis-report a shot on target (like, a "miss" when you've centered up the X-ring?). Again, I'm sure the chance is non-zero, but I would bet the likelihood is far smaller than a puller who can't find a shot on the paper.

The red-X is annoying, I'll give you all that. But, in the end, it's generally no worse (and happens less often) than the guy who gives you 15 - 20 second service when you are shooting X's.

I do miss having spotters to look at on other targets...

At a minimum, E-Targets are *no worse* than manual pullers and, in my experience so far, much more consistent.

Maybe so, Jay. But, I've been to the Berger SW Nationals, a US F-Open Team practice, the Sinclair East Coast Fullbore Championship, another US F-Open Team practice, an Oak Ridge Long Range Regional, and a couple of club matches at Tullahoma (where at least one might expect to endure the travails you list) so far this year; all manually pulled targets; and I have not experienced any of the issues you list? Statistically, is it about to hail down on me next manual match?!!

Dan

 

[Dos XX]

What was the shooter rotation at National's last year, or at the Midwest Palma this year? Was it relay 1, relay 2, relay3/ relay 1,2,3/ relay 1,2,3?

Or, was it like a manually pulled match and relay 3 goes to the imaginary pit/hammock area for 1 then comes out of the imaginary pit and shoots 3 then goes back to the imaginary pit for 2?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Maybe so, Jay. But, I've been to the Berger SW Nationals, a US F-Open Team practice, the Sinclair East Coast Fullbore Championship, another US F-Open Team practice, an Oak Ridge Long Range Regional, and a couple of club matches at Tullahoma (where at least one might expect to endure the travails you list) so far this year; all manually pulled targets; and I have not experienced any of the issues you list? Statistically, is it about to hail down on me next manual match?!!

Dan

hmmm. I might have to ask the MD in Ottawa to squad me at the other end of the line from you... ;-) Based the current weather there, I'm sure hail will show up sooner or later.

But, no, like any of these issues that we tear down to death on this forum (scope testing, electronic targets, issues with target pulling) we nitpick the edge case to death. However, I'll dare to say that you HAVE experienced ALL of those travails I've listed at one time or another throughout your career as a competitive shooter. Probably a heck of a lot more than I have. Just like I know you've experienced issues with the electronic system as well. There's no such thing as a perfect system, manual or electronic. They both present issues of one sort or another, but in the balance, my opinion is that neither is particularly better or worse than the other. Just different.

Those things that I listed generally don't happen, but occasionally, they do. Generally at the worst possible time. And it's frustrating as hell when it happens. And the same goes for electronic targets - by and large, the things that everyone is complaining about here generally don't happen, but it makes for great material on a forum when they occasionally do.

Of course, everyone generalizes their case based off a bad experience - "I had a slow puller" translates to "all pullers except for me are too slow". "I got a red-X" translates to "all e-targets have unreliable service".

The only point I am trying to make is that the issues here are being WAAAAY over-generalized.

 

[BradY]

There is huge debate yet again in Aus regarding ET's, reliability, functionality, machine gunning, time delays, overall shot timer... it just gets done to death, then theres another big event with the same issues and it gets dragged back up again. We have been using them for probably 5 years or so and there is still issues with them and there isn't a clear way of resolving them yet. But let's face it, its the 21st century and ET's are here to stay. We may not like them all the time, but they are here to stay. I would prefer manual targets at state and national and international competitions until ET's are proven reliable and the rules that govern their use is agreed upon INTERNATIONALLY so there are no grey areas when they are introduced to higher level competition. That is my personal opinion.

It's easy since we are so relatively new to the systems compared to manual targets to not get along with them. Manual targets have been used for decades in target shooting. And manual markers can still get it wrong. Electronic no where near that time and we still cant get them 100% The companies that develop and sell these things to us as consumers need to be a little more accountable until that is sorted out. And more training needs to be available for RO's and match directors to become competent in knowing when there is a problem and how to rectify it fairly across all shooters.

Hats off to anyone who is working on getting them right, as there are plenty who just sit back and criticise and make the others job (which is usually volunteer based work) that little bit harder.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Much of my concern with ETs comes in the form of not wanting to take the difficulty out of the game. If it was easy, I would have quit long ago.

What makes things easier with ETs you ask?

Here is my opinion:
1. ETs give a much higher precision to the shot mark location when compared to looking at the spotter through the soup.
2. ETs plot all of your shots for you at a speed that allows you the benefits of plotting without the tradeoffs.
3. ETs are much faster than most human pullers. This allows you to more easily capitalize on a condition (AKA machinegunning).

Simple fixes (rules change suggestions):
1. Remove the majority of the zoom function so the shooter has to try to discern the location in the target. Also make the dot onscreen scaled the same as a legal sized spotter.
2. Simply eliminate this function - the ET only shows the last impact on screen until the string is complete.
3. The 7 second delay (which I've found to be faster than most pullers - really needs to be 10 seconds) needs to be made mandatory with no hint of the last impact point or score shown to the shooter until the time is up. Like a manual target, any shot fired during the delay must be scored a miss.

These changes would not negatively affect the ET systems, would not negatively impact the fairness they provide in timing, and would bring us back to slow fire.

 

[Macropod]

One thing we have found at our club (which operates with electronic targets) is the problem with opinionated individuals with technical knowledge deficits. Targets and equipment do require maintenance and with proper care and set up, are generally very reliable. When some moron deliberately changes things to satisfy their ego big problems soon raise their ugly heads. We found this out at a major prize meeting recently. It is early days but ET's are here to stay and I'd rather master the technology than be behind the curve.

 

[Zilla]

Much of my concern with ETs comes in the form of not wanting to take the difficulty out of the game. If it was easy, I would have quit long ago.

What makes things easier with ETs you ask?

Here is my opinion:
1. ETs give a much higher precision to the shot mark location when compared to looking at the spotter through the soup.
2. ETs plot all of your shots for you at a speed that allows you the benefits of plotting without the tradeoffs.
3. ETs are much faster than most human pullers. This allows you to more easily capitalize on a condition (AKA machinegunning).

Simple fixes (rules change suggestions):
1. Remove the majority of the zoom function so the shooter has to try to discern the location in the target. Also make the dot onscreen scaled the same as a legal sized spotter.
2. Simply eliminate this function - the ET only shows the last impact on screen until the string is complete.
3. The 7 second delay (which I've found to be faster than most pullers - really needs to be 10 seconds) needs to be made mandatory with no hint of the last impact point or score shown to the shooter until the time is up. Like a manual target, any shot fired during the delay must be scored a miss.

These changes would not negatively affect the ET systems, would not negatively impact the fairness they provide in timing, and would bring us back to slow fire.

This.

 

[Dos XX]

And at the end of the string, have it display an off color joke and make a disparaging comment about my score, like, "you nined the hell out of that one, didn't you?"

 

[Average joe]

What was the shooter rotation at National's last year, or at the Midwest Palma this year? Was it relay 1, relay 2, relay3/ relay 1,2,3/ relay 1,2,3?

Or, was it like a manually pulled match and relay 3 goes to the imaginary pit/hammock area for 1 then comes out of the imaginary pit and shoots 3 then goes back to the imaginary pit for 2?

Dos,
the rotation was 1,2,3,4,5,6......1,2,3,4,5,6.....etc

 

[Bob Sebold]

WHo is this Danny Bigs guy anyhow Jay? And what do mean keith by clean in between relays? 2017 Midwest Palma winner cuz of E targets wants to know! And Dos you will easily get over not pulling targets. You just have to do your BSing behind the line, and try not yell so as to disturb the shooters.

 

[womac]

To continue on with the electronic target debate; I put forth that what electronic targets actually do is put the work of set up, maintenance during the match (target change out), and tear down onto a few dedicated shooters while the majority of shooters stand around waiting to be served. On manual targets, everyone has a turn at putting up and taking down targets. Is this my imagination or are others seeing the same thing? How are other ranges handling the electronic set up/maintenance/tear down responsibility, to ensure those dedicated personnel don't get burned out?

 

[Bindi2]

We only handle our target frames twice at a comp. into the frame and back to the shed done on a trolley. The aiming marks are removable so no hard work. But you are right about the people. Our ETs have speed up the job and made the load easier for the few. Maintenance was a very big problem because of the type of ETs we are using but some lateral thinking has solved this. A big Range Officer with a loud voice calling no beer till all is packed up, gets fast action every time.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Some of our ranges leave their targets up for the season with a simple tarpping system. The wood on the new targets is marine grade and sealed so very little if any rain gets into them. Maintance is usually a once a season process not counting sensor or wiring hits. The rubber can take upwards of 3000 rounds without patching. Our oldest targets of 8 years still have their original rubber. So that's very simple.