Electronic Targets: The Cons

[Bart B.]

Some upcoming CMP matches are cancelled because e-targets broke.

NRA scoring plugs have about .002" inch resolution for bullet hole to target ring.

E-targets, at best I can find, have .080".

How are challenges for score resolved?

I remember the "leaded edge" scoring ruckus starting in 1971 when 22 caliber service rifles were first allowed in DCM matches. A 22 caliber plug would score a challenged shot a 9. 30 caliber bullet hole's center the same .153" distance off the scoring ring would be scored a 10. Plug flanges two different diameters; .224" and .308".

High Power Committee finally made 30 caliber scoring plugs the only ones allowed. Decision based on how far the bullet hole center is from ring edge, measuring flange is .308" that's standard 30 caliber bullet/groove diameter. That "leveled" all the playing fields.

 

[SWRichmond]

I do IT for a living, I know what a damned protocol stack is. I hate software. Why anyone would use the term "protocol stack" in a shooting forum other than as an attempt to appear knowledgeable is beyond me.

This is not the place to have discussions about software weaknesses, software vulnerabilities, network design issues and so on. Or is it? In order to defend my hobby from being destroyed by people trying to make money with computers do I need to dive into this?

Anyone with a lick of sense and any detailed knowledge of networks, software, servers, Wi-Fi, low voltage connectors, and doing those things outdoors, in rain, high temperature, bright sun, in an insecure environment where there is prize money and awards at stake.

If only the bulk of you knew how remarkably remarkably ludicrous that is. It's so stupid it burns.

 

[swadiver]

I do IT for a living, I know what a damned protocol stack is. I hate software. Why anyone would use the term "protocol stack" in a shooting forum other than as an attempt to appear knowledgeable is beyond me.

This is not the place to have discussions about software weaknesses, software vulnerabilities, network design issues and so on. Or is it? In order to defend my hobby from being destroyed by people trying to make money with computers do I need to dive into this?

Anyone with a lick of sense and any detailed knowledge of networks, software, servers, Wi-Fi, low voltage connectors, and doing those things outdoors, in rain, high temperature, bright sun, in an insecure environment where there is prize money and awards at stake.

If only the bulk of you knew how remarkably remarkably ludicrous that is. It's so stupid it burns.

don't sugar coat it. tell us how you really feel.......................

 

[Nowhere Man]

Some upcoming CMP matches are cancelled because e-targets broke.

NRA scoring plugs have about .002" inch resolution for bullet hole to target ring.

E-targets, at best I can find, have .080".

How are challenges for score resolved?

I remember the "leaded edge" scoring ruckus starting in 1971 when 22 caliber service rifles were first allowed in DCM matches. A 22 caliber plug would score a challenged shot a 9. 30 caliber bullet hole's center the same .153" distance off the scoring ring would be scored a 10. Plug flanges two different diameters; .224" and .308".

High Power Committee finally made 30 caliber scoring plugs the only ones allowed. Decision based on how far the bullet hole center is from ring edge, measuring flange is .308" that's standard 30 caliber bullet/groove diameter. That "leveled" all the playing fields.

I believe SMT has now reversed the standard to .223. So, a .308 which may have touched the ring is now electronically scored as a miss.

 

[243Mendoza]

Some upcoming CMP matches are cancelled because e-targets broke.

NRA scoring plugs have about .002" inch resolution for bullet hole to target ring.

E-targets, at best I can find, have .080"....

Etargets have been used by international competitors for decades and I would expect that the Olympics would have a high standard for accuracy. The Swiss and Scandinavians have been using Etargets for decades also.

 

[bobeager]

A Bit of Trivia from Downunder. Did you know that WiFi is an Australian invention. Here is another. A purpose built, E Target Mound Display Unit. Robust, 12 inch, DAY LIGHT Colour Touch Screen.

 

[Monte F]

I believe SMT has now reversed the standard to .223. So, a .308 which may have touched the ring is now electronically scored as a miss.

Refer to rule 14.3 in the NRA high power rulebook. Each caliber has it's own scoring plug. I can see a lot of lost points if not challenged and checked with the proper sized plug if in doubt.

 

[Bart B.]

Yes, plugs now equal caliber. Not all caliber's are specified.

Which one's used if a 25 caliber cartridge is used?

There's no caliber restriction for NRA match rifles.

 

[Recko555]

You input your caliber size for the SMT targets i have shot on.

 

[Joe R]

As it has been discussed in the press relating to electronic voting machine, there are serious reliability and verification issues with systems that do not provide a reliable audit trail. Target scoring systems IMO are inevitable. However, I'm hoping that it is an optical system (like the Bullseye Camera) that will retain the paper target for dispute challenges/resolution.

A system that does not provide for paper target verification is wide open to failures and outright manipulation. Just my 2 cents.

Joe

 

[rardoin]

A system that does not provide for paper target verification is wide open to failures and outright manipulation. Just my 2 cents.
Joe

As in....."I would have cleaned that target but the damn Russians changed my score!"

 

[scubohuntr]

Yes, plugs now equal caliber. Not all caliber's are specified.

Which one's used if a 25 caliber cartridge is used?

There's no caliber restriction for NRA match rifles.

Anyone who shoots .243, .25, .264, or .270 gets scored with the .17 plug. Go home and get yer service rifle, and leave that fancy stuff to F-class.

 

[Bart B.]

A system that does not provide for paper target verification is wide open to failures and outright manipulation. Just my 2 cents.

That's worth two dollars.

 

[jkl]

Will anyone admit a human puller ever made a mistake. I did on Trudy Fey at the Berger Match 5 years ago scoring. I missed one of 12 X's line judge made her shoot another shot. Thank god it was one more X.

Humans screw up once and a while.

John

 

[Nowhere Man]

You input your caliber size for the SMT targets i have shot on.

Yes, you do but it doesn't mean a thing. SMT still only recognizes one preset caliber.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Refer to rule 14.3 in the NRA high power rulebook. Each caliber has it's own scoring plug. I can see a lot of lost points if not challenged and checked with the proper sized plug if in doubt.

We are talking ELECTRONIC TARGET SYSTEMS not paper targets.

 

[JarheadAZ]

I spent a whole career making my living by wrangling computer problems. There's a short answer and a long answer to every computer problem.

Long answer dangles techno-ese in front of folks who speak a lesser language than techno-ese, and is essentially unsatisfying for the recipient. I call that a miss.

Short answer is that if the consumer isn't satisfied, there's an unresolved problem, it needs to be resolved, all the explanations in the book won't (re?)establish credibility, and it's till a miss.

At this stage of my shooting career, such questions have likely become superfluous. But if I do pick up my pace, I'll be doing an about face as soon as I recognize that I'm being scored electronically. IMHO, it's still in Beta, and will continue to be so until folks stop talking about the Red-X.

Success is easy to recognize, as is failure. A Red-X (to me...) means the system failed to deliver a satisfactory result.

Period.

That's an opinion...

Greg Langelius

 

[Mudeat]

A Bit of Trivia from Downunder. Did you know that WiFi is an Australian invention. Here is another. A purpose built, E Target Mound Display Unit. Robust, 12 inch, DAY LIGHT Colour Touch Screen. View attachment 1013967

I always hear it was the Dutch.

In 1991 NCR Corporation/AT&T (now Nokia Labs and LSI Corporation) invented a precursor to 802.11 in Nieuwegein, the Netherlands. The inventors initially intended to use the technology for cashier systems. The first wireless products were brought to the market under the name WaveLAN with raw data rates of 1 Mbit/s and 2 Mbit/s.

Vic Hayes, who held the chair of IEEE 802.11 for 10 years, and has been called the "father of Wi-Fi", was involved in designing the initial 802.11b and 802.11a standards within the IEEE.[4]

 

[swadiver]

oh huh, food fight........................

 

[bobeager]

A bit OT, but this is from Wikapedia

"
In 1971, ALOHAnet connected the Hawaiian Islands with a UHF wireless packet network. ALOHAnet and the ALOHA protocol were early forerunners to Ethernet, and later the IEEE 802.11 protocols, respectively.

A 1985 ruling by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission released the ISM band for unlicensed use.[2] These frequency bands are the same ones used by equipment such as microwave ovens and are subject to interference.

In 1991, NCR Corporation with AT&T Corporation invented the precursor to 802.11, intended for use in cashier systems, under the name WaveLAN.

The Australian radio-astronomer Dr John O'Sullivan with his colleagues Terence Percival, Graham Daniels, Diet Ostry, John Deane[3] developed a key patent used in Wi-Fi as a by-product of a Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) research project, "a failed experiment to detect exploding mini black holes the size of an atomic particle".[4] Dr O'Sullivan and his colleagues are credited with inventing Wi-Fi. [5][6]In 1992 and 1996, CSIRO obtained patents[7] for a method later used in Wi-Fi to "unsmear" the signal.[8]

The first version of the 802.11 protocol was released in 1997, and provided up to 2 Mbit/s link speeds. This was updated in 1999 with 802.11b to permit 11 Mbit/s link speeds, and this proved to be popular.

In 1999, the Wi-Fi Alliance formed as a trade association to hold the Wi-Fi trademark under which most products are sold.[9]

Wi-Fi uses a large number of patents held by many different organizations.[10] In April 2009, 14 technology companies agreed to pay CSIRO $1 billion for infringements on CSIRO patents.[11] This led to Australia labeling Wi-Fi as an Australian invention,[12] though this has been the subject of some controversy.[13][14] CSIRO won a further $220 million settlement for Wi-Fi patent-infringements in 2012 with global firms in the United States required to pay the CSIRO licensing rights estimated to be worth an additional $1 billion in royalties.[11][15][16] In 2016, the wireless local area network Test Bed was chosen as Australia's contribution to the exhibition A History of the World in 100 Objects held in the National Museum of Australia.[17]