Electronic Targets: The Cons

[Mudeat]

Success has many fathers.

 

[Heman]

We run SMT"s for CIHPRS matches at Atterbury now for 2 years. Big Red X means your device lost connection plain and simple. Usually somthing got in the way like someones shooting stool. Missed shots yeah they may happen. Way the NRA rule reads and what we do (where the rule came from) is you check outside the target, you then go into the adjacent targets and look into that target to see if you can find the shot. If you can't find the shot and the shooter has been putting them in the scoring rings you ignore the miss and give them another shot. Now we have a gentlemen who has been blowing up bullets if that happens and they are missing a lot of shots well then we watch to see what is going on, and go in to see if the target is working, etc. Not a big problem. Usually when the systems have problems it is because the people running them don't set them up properly. As far as challenges well you don't get any, it is what it is.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I think that shooters are smart enough to understand that a challenge is virtually impossible given the nature of e-targets.

I found shooting on the E-target fun, but I didn't have any Red-X events due to the incredibly strong WIFI in the tablet that the target owner loaned to me.

I might just be sentimental, or a traditionalist. Either way, I am quite fond of the F-class game the way it is/was without the E-target controversies.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I think that shooters are smart enough to understand that a challenge is virtually impossible given the nature of e-targets.

I found shooting on the E-target fun, but I didn't have any Red-X events due to the incredibly strong WIFI in the tablet that the target owner loaned to me.

I might just be sentimental, or a traditionalist. Either way, I am quite fond of the F-class game the way it is/was without the E-target controversies.

To wit, Keith; there are two blogs on this site...one titled "Electronic Targets: Cons", the other scrolled way down is "Electronic Targets: Pros". The latter has only two entries, while this one is soaring! Might that tell us something?

Dan

 

[Dos XX]

I learned all the secrets to life while pulling pit duty, plus some good jokes.

What do you do while you aren't pulling targets? Take a nap? Maybe we could have a hammock station in the shade?

 

[swadiver]

I learned all the secrets to life while pulling pit duty, plus some good jokes.

What do you do while you aren't pulling targets? Take a nap? Maybe we could have a hammock station in the shade?

what everyone else in the world does now, get on your smart phone.

 

[243Mendoza]

To wit, Keith; there are two blogs on this site...one titled "Electronic Targets: Cons", the other scrolled way down is "Electronic Targets: Pros". The latter has only two entries, while this one is soaring! Might that tell us something?

Dan

People love to complain. When things are going well, people are too busy to say so...unless you on Facebook

 

[SWRichmond]

If the system is so poorly designed or so incredibly underspec'd that wifi signal can be lost by placing a shooting stool (a common object at shooting matches) between the access point(s) and the firing line, then some fool shooting range bought a pig in a poke. But hey, they don't call it "bleeding edge" for nothing.

So which range is making this claim? I'd love to know. Range members might want to know who approved the purchase?

Inquiring minds want to know. If it was my range I would want to know.

As I stated earlier I do IT for a living. I am so sick of people selling tech that doesn't work, that they can't or won't support, that (as someone else said earlier) is "beta" (first release which should really be viewed as experimental), and then making lame excuses for it...

I know how to design networks. I known how to design wifi. I know how much regular, routine scheduled maintenance is required to keep this equipment working. The idea of deploying it in a usually remote area, in the hands of inexperienced and untrained people, likely with no remote network access to do updates, troubleshooting and so on without dispatching someone from hundreds of miles away or worse...it's unfathomable.

So let's do that, and then hundreds of people will each use valuable vacation time and spend thousands of dollars each in prep and travel, to go to a major event so a server can crash, or even more stupidly to have an undersigned wifi system produce non-results.

I can't wait. The salespeople probably didn't mention any of that.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

What's killing me about this thread, is the nitpicking over e-target functional issues, that in the end, are really no different from common issues with manually pulled targets, which conveniently gets forgotten in the quest to deride e-target because: A. they are new, and B. they are electronic. People fear change, that's for sure.

- anyone here been the victim of slow target service? I have. Many times.

- anyone here here been the victim of a scorer who missed a shot (an X maybe?), causing you to have to re-shoot that shot, when you've got a full record of shot brass in your case? How does it feel when that make-up shot comes up a '9' or worse? I have. Again, more than once.

- anyone here been the victim of a missed shot by the puller, with the target coming up a miss? I have not, but I've witnessed it personally. Multiple times. One time it was a fresh target, so they counted the holes after the fact. The other, it was SOL because the target had multiple shooters on it. The other fun one is when the puller forgets to paste a shot and finds two shots on target a couple shots down the line...

- I sure hear a lot of people waxing nostalgic about their time in the pits - at the same time, I sure hear a lot of bitching when the rain drip line is directly above your head, or the sun is beating down directly on you while you are down in the pits. I also hear a lot of bitching depending on which relay you get. Usually Relay 3 who gets to put targets up and take them down again.

Do e-targets miss shots? Maybe - I've never encountered it, but there's a non-zero chance of it happening. I've heard from experienced shooters that it happened to them, so I won't dismiss it. Does an e-target mis-report a shot on target (like, a "miss" when you've centered up the X-ring?). Again, I'm sure the chance is non-zero, but I would bet the likelihood is far smaller than a puller who can't find a shot on the paper.

The red-X is annoying, I'll give you all that. But, in the end, it's generally no worse (and happens less often) than the guy who gives you 15 - 20 second service when you are shooting X's.

I do miss having spotters to look at on other targets...

At a minimum, E-Targets are *no worse* than manual pullers and, in my experience so far, much more consistent.

 

[Dos XX]

Did I mention the good jokes?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

To wit, Keith; there are two blogs on this site...one titled "Electronic Targets: Cons", the other scrolled way down is "Electronic Targets: Pros". The latter has only two entries, while this one is soaring! Might that tell us something?

Dan

You definitely have something there. Even the "pros" presented (including mine) could be seen as cons depending on one's point of view.
I am personally not interested in making the game easier. I think scores are getting a bit too high on average. My only experience with an e-target gave me the feeling that the target was doing much of the work that I should have been.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

To wit, Keith; there are two blogs on this site...one titled "Electronic Targets: Cons", the other scrolled way down is "Electronic Targets: Pros". The latter has only two entries, while this one is soaring! Might that tell us something?

Dan

Yeah, that the Internet is more about bitching than anything else! ;-)

 

[ShootDots]

You definitely have something there. Even the "pros" presented (including mine) could be seen as cons depending on one's point of view.
I am personally not interested in making the game easier. I think scores are getting a bit too high on average. My only experience with an e-target gave me the feeling that the target was doing much of the work that I should have been.

I think you are correct Keith.. The scores ARE getting a bit high. I was not around when F-Class first "opened for business". It is my understanding that they actually used the Sling Shooters targets for their targets. It was soon apparent that this was way too easy and the ONE M.O.A. target ensued. Now with the advent of better barrels, MUCH better bullets and better powders, the ONE M.O.A. targets are rapidly becoming a bit on the "easy-side", especially for the shooter capable of taking full advantage of the better components. I have advocated for a 3/4 M.O.A. target for F-Class, however, it has been maligned and "pooh-poohed" out of circulation. I still believe it is necessary to increase the degree of difficulty to obtain some of the Categories (I.E. H/Master etc..) and obtain "new" National Records.

 

[SWRichmond]

Pretty stiff words.
I'll bet that you are old enough to remember when cell phones first came out and all the troubles that surrounded them. Do you have one now?

Of course, tens or 100's of $Billions have been expended on developing and deploying the cellular network on the US alone, involving major and determined long term commitment by dozens of multinational corporations, plus more tens or perhaps 100's of $Billions on phones operating system software, phone apps, and so forth, with a cast of probably millions of people involved all told. Do you mean to imply that similar effort has gone into the development of electronic targets?

Of course you don't. But thanks for making the comparison.

 

[Dos XX]

I haven't shot on electronic targets, so I can't comment on how they work or don't work, and I don't know what a red x is. I am planning to shoot at Lodi this year, so I will get a chance to form my own opinion. I have had slow pullers. I have had scorer issues. They are frustrating.

My question about what do you do while you aren't pulling targets is a real question. There is a rhythm to a match. You are either shooting, pulling, or scoring. There is no down time. You can get the range at 7:00 am and finish at 3 or 4 pm and it goes by quickly because you are constantly doing something. Your head is in the shooting game all the time. I am not sure I want an hour plus of down time while I would normally be in the pits pulling 3.

That said, I shot a 2 day match this weekend in the heat. I would have been happy to forgo the last trip to the pits on Sunday.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I will make a dangerous assumption to answer @Dos XX

I would assume that the shooting rotation would assume a 123,123,123 format with e-targets. That woul whittle down the amount of free time to a half hour.

Just imagine, you could reload or clean your barrel between relays just like Benchrest.

 

[Dos XX]

I will make a dangerous assumption to answer @Dos XX

I would assume that the shooting rotation would assume a 123,123,123 format with e-targets. That woul whittle down the amount of free time to a half hour.

Just imagine, you could reload or clean your barrel between relays just like Benchrest.

I am interested to know if that is the case.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I am interested to know if that is the case.

It is around these parts when we have a match with paid pullers. I really don't see why it wouldn't go that way.

 

[OldManTA]

We had three relays at the Mid West Palma matches just recently and there was enough time to attend to your gear after your turn to score and be ready for your turn to shoot OR pack up your gear and move to the next yard line. That was when it wasn't raining. Your concern about a lack of rhythm is probably not worthy of your time. Since there are no pit change delays things go pretty quickly. As far as some of the other issues, there were competent people running the line and a man from SMT in attendance to get problems resolved and, for the most part, quickly. The folks at Lodi run a first class operation and they have been doing so for quite awhile. This was the 18th year for the Mid West Palma matches. I expect you will enjoy the event you plan to attend. Expect a high level of competition and a VERY challenging range.
Tom Alves

 

[Dos XX]

We had three relays at the Mid West Palma matches just recently and there was enough time to attend to your gear after your turn to score and be ready for your turn to shoot OR pack up your gear and move to the next yard line. That was when it wasn't raining. Your concern about a lack of rhythm is probably not worthy of your time. Since there are no pit change delays things go pretty quickly. As far as some of the other issues, there were competent people running the line and a man from SMT in attendance to get problems resolved and, for the most part, quickly. The folks at Lodi run a first class operation and they have been doing so for quite awhile. This was the 18th year for the Mid West Palma matches. I expect you will enjoy the event you plan to attend. Expect a high level of competition and a VERY challenging range.
Tom Alves

So did you shoot 1,2,3 or was the rotation the same as if you were pulling and doing pit changes?