Electronic Targets Help

[SWRichmond]

We are investigating the possibility of buying electronic targets for match use at my range; XTC, F Class, likely ten targets or perhaps twelve. 600 yards. We want to consider all aspects of such a deployment. I am interested in and would greatly appreciate information about all current knowledge regarding experiences with various brands and installation setups. Positives and negatives but no flaming please.

I am interested in everything about this but am especially interested in information regarding:

1. Spacing between targets to eliminate "crosstalk" of shots from one target to another (if this is an issue)
2. Sensor spacing sensitivities for .30 cal versus .22 cal (5.56X45)
3. Suggested frame sizes
4. Storage of electronics; can sensors be left in a hot Conex box or should they all be taken home?
5. General operability questions:
   1. Ease of setup
   2. Startup time
   3. Ease of competitor adoption
      1. How steep was the learning curve for your local competitors when you introduced e-targets?
      2. Did you buy iPads for competitor use or do you expect them to bring their own?
   4. Conduct of a XTC match on e targets
      1. Target changes and re-centering for 200, 300, 600 - how is this done? How kludgy is it?
   5. What do you like?
   6. What do you not like
   7. What do you have to do to compensate for the things you don't like?
   8. Unresolved issues
   9. Experienced loss rate of components due to failure or damage

If you are a vendor of or have a financial interest in electronic targets, or have received complementary or reduced-cost product in exchange for promotional work, your comments are very welcome but please clearly state your connection to the business in your comments.


Thank you all very much for the information you provide!

 

[jrh84]

No stake in E-targets, but our club has been using them since 2016. We have 14 targets we use 2 weekends a month, 8 months a year, so I'd venture to say we've (CIHPRS @ Atterbury) got as many rounds on our Silver Mountain target system as any club in the US.

1. Spacing between targets to eliminate "crosstalk" of shots from one target to another (if this is an issue)

We use the normal target frames, and raise them up like normal pulled targets. 6 ft wide frames, spaced 5 or 6 ft between frames I believe. The Silver mountains have been upgraded to all but eliminate dropped shots. We had 1 dropped shot last weekend out of 20 shooters for 2 days. We shoot rapids all at once. Some ranges will alternate firing points, but its unnecessary as far as we are concerned.

1. Sensor spacing sensitivities for .30 cal versus .22 cal (5.56X45)

Not sure exactly what you mean...I believe all of ours are set for .30 cal and left there.

1. Suggested frame sizes

Ours are 6x6 I believe

1. Storage of electronics; can sensors be left in a hot Conex box or should they all be taken home?

They can be, but we take the batteries and main boxes home every night. The wiring and microphones usually stay in the conex box at Atterbury.

1. General operability questions:
   1. Ease of setup - we set up 14 targets in about an hour, hour and a half on Saturday. Sunday is just putting fresh batteries in, tap testing them, and going for it (20 mins)
   2. Startup time
   3. Ease of competitor adoption
      1. How steep was the learning curve for your local competitors when you introduced e-targets? Not very....if you can work a smart phone, you can shoot on them. Configuring everything as the MD is a little more involved, but we'll within most folks' capabilities.
      2. Did you buy iPads for competitor use or do you expect them to bring their own? We hadcub tablets (Kindle fires I believe) for a.cluple of years, but we tell everyone to bring their own now. Not a bad idea to have a couple of charged tablets and/or power banks in case someone has issues or runs out of juice.
   4. Conduct of a XTC match on e targets
      1. Target changes and re-centering for 200, 300, 600 - how is this done? How kludgy is it? We have inserts with faces for each yardline. Pull the frame down, pop the old one out, put the new one in, and raise it up. Takes 5 mins for 14 frames. We use vinyl stickers for the faces, and gave easy repair centers, which get used a lot for F-class. But regular target faces that get glued on work fine too.
   5. What do you like? Easy, simple, shorter matches, less heat stress, and you get great info on the screen like velocities, group size, etc.
   6. What do you not like. Very little.
   7. What do you have to do to compensate for the things you don't like?
   8. Unresolved issues. Were lucky to have Silver Mountain US owners 2 hours from Atterbury, so we usually get any issues worked out quickly. They've been awesome in getting issues resolved and taking suggestions for improvement.
   9. Experienced loss rate of components due to failure or damage. We had one box shot 3 years ago, but now we make sure they're below the berm. We occasionally get a where harness shot up (1 or 2 a season). Its not been bad.

Sorry for the goofy formatting...typed from a phone.

Ryan Hyslop, CIHPRS

 

[HighpowerIndiana]

SWRichmond.

We are the Silver Mountain Targets U.S. dealer, distributor, and authorized warranty facility. We stock target systems and parts here in Indiana. If you have specific questions, please feel free to contact me anytime.

We have lots of experience with setting up multi-target ranges and helping with frame designs, target inserts for quick change faces, and general routines for running matches.

Dave Schnelle
Silver Mountain Targets USA
dave@SilverMountainTargetsUSA.com
765-427-2753

 

[jkl]

Can't get better service and support than we get from Silver Mountain.

John

 

[F Class John]

Been running 12 Shotmarkers for over 2 years, we put about 45k rounds on them per year at the minimum. You have some good questions but my experience is that having answers will help to some degree but the change is more emotional for people than practical and that goes both ways so be prepared to opinions and emotions to fly for a while until people settle down. It's really tough for people to wrap their brains around the fact that it doesn't matter if what they're aiming at is really where their impact is. It's a dramatic change so be understanding of those who are concerned and work to help them through it. Some see it as crushing history and other see it as the future.

1. Spacing between targets to eliminate "crosstalk" of shots from one target to another (if this is an issue)

Out line is a little erratic in areas but the closest target center to target center we have is about 6' but you can see in the pics how we have them laid out

1. Sensor spacing sensitivities for .30 cal versus .22 cal (5.56X45)

We've run the same spacing for all calibers and have everything from .223 to .338 run in a night with us and no issues unless something for some reason goes subsonic.

1. Suggested frame sizes

We run 6'x3' which makes them very manageable for one person but if you have a lot of people who can't handle windage issues you may want them wider. My personal target for up to 1000yd is only 36x36.
BUT BUT BUT remember that Adam (Shotmarker) will tell you that a 6x6 frame will always be slightly more accurate than a 3'x3' for instance.

1. Storage of electronics; can sensors be left in a hot Conex box or should they all be taken home?

Our are all put in mesh bags and stacked in cat litter tubs and stored in either a connex or outbuilding rain or shine with no issues. I'm always less worried about heat than I am trapped moisture.

1. General operability questions:
   1. Ease of setup
2. I've taught all ages and skill levels without issue
   1. Startup time
3. Not sure what you're asking
   1. Ease of competitor adoption
      1. How steep was the learning curve for your local competitors when you introduced e-targets?
   2. I actually had less problems with computer inept people since they were willing to learn vs computer savvy people who didn't want to listen but even at it's worst, it only took a few matches before my worst pupil caught on.
      1. Did you buy iPads for competitor use or do you expect them to bring their own?
   3. YES, both. You will always have both and need to expect some people will expect you to have them.
   4. Conduct of a XTC match on e targets
      1. Target changes and re-centering for 200, 300, 600 - how is this done? How kludgy is it?
4. Can't speak to this.
   1. What do you like?
5. Too many things to list. But the biggest for me is how many people have started shooting with us because they don't have to learn to, or have to pull targets because it speeds up matches considerably. There will be nay-sayers because of this but people want to come out, have their fun and go home.
   1. What do you not like
6. Missed rounds and/or people complaining about electronic targets. We are all on the same playing field when we use them for better or worse so know that at some point it'll miss one of your rounds, get over it and start shooting, your 22 minutes is ticking away.
   1. What do you have to do to compensate for the things you don't like?
7. Bringing a few extra rounds for when a round is missed.
   1. Unresolved issues
8. The occasional missed round but I've shot pulled matches where you'll be drilling 10s and Xs and suddenly someone takes 2 minutes to find another X shot so it goes both ways.
   1. Experienced loss rate of components due to failure or damage
9. in over two years I've had one cable one senser shot. That's it. BUT no matter what unit you get protect the sending sensor unit one way or another (we ensure ours are below grade) because it'll be the most expensive thing to replace.

I've done a number of videos on using them and am happy to help where I can.

 

[dc.fireman]

I've used the Silver Mountain Solo targets - If you're in Richmond, VA. area (by your username), give me a ring - I'm in NoVa, and I can give you a live demo. FWIW - I bought mine from Dave Schnelle, the US Distributor. It's been great.

-tc

 

[SWRichmond]

Thanks everyone for the very very useful information. I truly appreciate the time it took you to write those informative replies!

 

[SWRichmond]

Thanks again for those answering my inquiry. I am working on a paper for my club and will contact those who have asked for contact before I submit anything to the club. I am still interested in more feedback and info if anyone wishes to share.

As I write this I come up with new questions. Here is one: has adopting electronic targets increased, decreased, or had no impact on attendance at your matches?

 

[F Class John]

As I write this I come up with new questions. Here is one: has adopting electronic targets increased, decreased, or had no impact on attendance at your matches?

We have without a doubt seen an increase in attendance since I first implemented them several years ago. The inclusiveness they bring is amazing.

Edited: what you will find is as the guys are standing around they will start looking at each other‘s targets and it actually engages some really great conversation about how different people are shooting or what the wind is doing and how it is affecting them and stuff like that.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

We have without a doubt seen an increase in attendance since I first implemented them several years ago. The inclusiveness they bring is amazing.

Edited: what you will find is as the guys are standing around they will start looking at each other‘s targets and it actually engages some really great conversation about how different people are shooting or what the wind is doing and how it is affecting them and stuff like that.

John - that's my experience too. And great for non shooting visitors.
We are lucky, in that our range has all the targets permanently set at all ranges and a single firing point. ( 2 targets at 300, 500,600, 800,900,1000).Targets are printed on vinyl and not changed often! As a small club, using Electronics, we can get through, say, 2 distances, 2 details per shooter, in a morning. We don't leave the sensors etc at the range, the RO takes all the kit home to recharge etc, but we are looking at Solar power to do that. Doesnt take long to set up any 4 targets for a shoot.

Whangarei Rifle Club Inc.

whangareirifleclub.co.nz

 

[fl3gun]

For the last year and a half I have been traveling and shooting NRA across the course matches at clubs with electronic target systems to research their performance, our club is about to do the same, Purchase a 15 target system. The biggest challenge for the open mic systems is rapid fire strings. Unless you are going to spend huge money KTS or HEX the choice comes down to Shot Marker or Silver Mountain. In my experience the Silver Mountain system performs substantially better for rapid fire and match management than the Shot marker. The one club I shoot at regularly has their targets spaced probably only 4 foot on center and they have virtually no problems with lost shots on the Silver Mountain Solo 10 target system.

 

[SWRichmond]

For the last year and a half I have been traveling and shooting NRA across the course matches at clubs with electronic target systems to research their performance, our club is about to do the same, Purchase a 15 target system. The biggest challenge for the open mic systems is rapid fire strings. Unless you are going to spend huge money KTS or HEX the choice comes down to Shot Marker or Silver Mountain. In my experience the Silver Mountain system performs substantially better for rapid fire and match management than the Shot marker. The one club I shoot at regularly has their targets spaced probably only 4 foot on center and they have virtually no problems with lost shots on the Silver Mountain Solo 10 target system.

I am going to do some measuring at my home range today, but I am wondering if it is better to have large targets (which places adjacent target sensors closer together) or smaller targets ( helping maximize the separation between adjacent sensors)?

 

[Medic505]

6. What do you not like?
E Targets are not as accurate as the rifles shooting on them.

 

[TylerFromMS]

6. What do you not like?
E Targets are not as accurate as the rifles shooting on them.

Yeah, nah. If the frames are stable (built properly) and square, and the measurements are correct, there is zero difference. I’d venture to say there is more subjective difference between pullers’ scoring than is on the electronic targets.

Things I like:

Everyone has the same pit service, even at the end of the match, as electronics don’t get tired.

An electronic target doesn’t mess up putting a paddle in the wrong spot.

An electronic target scores exactly the same for everyone. If it’s an X on target 3, it will be an X on target 14.

If you really want to get anal, you can set it for the bullet diameter. We set ours to .264 and let it rip. “Oh no, that’s not fair to the guys shooting .30s.” .308 - .264= 0.044. Now, divide 0.044 by 2 and you get 0.022. That’s your margin of error. A human stands a greater chance of making this error due to a judgement call. Many line cutters are judgement calls, and a machine will call it the same every time. A person will not, and multiple persons certainly will not.

There is not a spotter taking up real estate on the X-ring. This is just a personal thing I have. I can shoot much better on electronic targets for whatever reason, and I think the spotter is part of the reason. At the end of an electronic match, the holes are exactly where they were scored. Working as intended. And it always will if the frames are built right.

Kids and people unable to pull targets can join in on the fun.

You don’t feel like you’ve been digging post holes with magic sticks all day at the end of the day with electronic targets.

No pit change confusion. No pit changes at all. Matches are more efficient.

At the end of a match, you’re not feeling like all you want to do is take a shower and go to bed.

I hate pulling targets. I’m on the youngish side of competitors and in pretty decent shape. I work hard at work and I don’t see the point in working hard when I’m playing, especially when there are better options. I was told “you’re young, you’re supposed to be able to do something all day.” I can and I do, when I’m being paid for it or having fun. Digging post holes behind a hill all day isn’t fun. Shooting and running my mouth with other competitors is.

Things I don’t like:

Nothing. If everything is set up properly, it will work as advertised. If I can teach a bunch of Mississippi rednecks how it works, I can teach anyone. Being a Mississippi redneck, I am somewhat of an expert in that field.

Thank you for subscribing to my blog post.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Tyler. Your first paragraph third sentence, lots of truth.

 

[TylerFromMS]

Tyler. Your first paragraph third sentence, lots of truth.

For sure.

And since they pick up on velocity and angle, crossfires can be tracked down easily.

You don’t have to radio “pull target 5!”

It RARELY misses a shot. I have seen it happen. What happens more often is that it doesn’t count a shot if it’s set up for a 7 sec delay. I hear “I shot and it didn’t pick up” sometimes. Yes, you did, but you shot during the 7 second delay. This time is treated as though the target is in the pits.

I’ve also heard “oh we’ll miss the comraderie in the pits”. I can talk just as much behind the firing line, and I won’t be out of breath from pulling for a fast shooter.

Bonus: you can watch others shots real time up the line and find what mirage is dominant.

People opposed to them remind me of hipsters that are trying to do things “artisanally” rather than embrace efficiency and ease of use. “No, I would rather harvest this rice by hand than use a tractor.” You’d never miss a stalk, to be sure. But at the cost of efficiency and manpower. We don’t measure in cubits anymore because we own tape measures. An inch is an inch. I’m 6’2” so my cubit might be longer or shorter than yours. My X may be your 10. I might make a mistake and not move a paddle. I might not like the guy shooting and not give him a 10 on a line cut. The guy beside me might take 20 seconds to pull, and I take 7.

An interesting idea would work somewhere like MSSA, where the frames are built well onto the carriers. Let the ones that want to pull pull, and let those of us that don’t use the electronic targets.

Again, thank you for subscribing to my blog post and allowing me to vent.

 

[fl3gun]

I am going to do some measuring at my home range today, but I am wondering if it is better to have large targets (which places adjacent target sensors closer together) or smaller targets ( helping maximize the separation between adjacent sensors)?

One thing to keep in mind is iron sight shooting. If you are going to run NRA midrange matches you will have iron sight shooters that will want a full 6x6 frame.

 

[rardoin]

Tyler, for the record, I think e targets will be the future of our sport. However as Dean correctly notes the precision of open mic targets are not up to snuff yet...even on perfectly rigid dedicated frames. My practice target has such a frame but has shown significant deviation between the paper record versus the electronic record. Wind across the face is likely the culprit because in dead calm the error is essentially zero. In 5+ mph cross winds the margin of error is, IMO, unacceptable for national championship matches.
Robin

 

[TylerFromMS]

Our frames may be built differently, I guess. The frames we use were made with 2x8s (or maybe 2x6s) have bottom crossmembers that don't move with either parallel or perpendicular winds. I've tested with them extensively, and I know you have, as well.

How often are targets marked wrong in a large match? I'd be willing to bet more often than people would be care to admit or discuss. We have a hard enough time getting people to admit to crossfires. There is a higher chance of human error than computer error due to accidents, fatigue, being in a hurry, wanting to give good pit service, etc...

I'll go back to my other argument: Your line cut will be different than mine. We are different people with different judgement calls. As you alluded to, deviation is unacceptable at large matches. IBS handles this with a dedicated pit crew and multiple people examining the targets after they are shot. We do not have this luxury. A person in the pit must make a quick decision to whether someone wins or loses. You may make a different decision than me. A computer will make the same decision for everyone. Assuming the frames are all exactly the same, if the target does indeed have deviation, it will be the same deviation for all. The playing field will be leveled more so than pit service with 20 different people having 20 different physical capabilities and 20 different thoughts on what should count as a point. If you want fair and accurate, there it is.

Let those that want to pull pull and let those who want to shoot e-targets relax in the shade between relays. I trust a computer judging with 1s and 0s more than people I share the roads with.

 

[Big_Daddy]

Our club runs 14 ShotMarkers and we have no issues that I am aware of.
And trust me, as President of the Club, I would have heard about any issues....LOL