E-Targets for F-Class

[Erud]

 

[MattPeetz]

30

Lol. Winner winner chicken dinner!!

 

[chkunz]

Bored? There is an option to ignore thread.

Steve, Why do people who have nothing to contribute hijack the thread? I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and learn from knowledgeable replies. I learn even from those who I may have different opinions and even change my opinions from time to time. Thanks again for your response to my technical comments, I have gone back many years and reviewed some text books and technical papers relative to the physics of compressible fluid flow as it applies to the physics of electronic targets based on acoustics. Best wishes, Clyde.

 

[243Mendoza]

Steve, Why do people who have nothing to contribute hijack the thread? I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and learn from knowledgeable replies. I learn even from those who I may have different opinions and even change my opinions from time to time. Thanks again for your response to my technical comments, I have gone back many years and reviewed some text books and technical papers relative to the physics of compressible fluid flow as it applies to the physics of electronic targets based on acoustics. Best wishes, Clyde.

I too had to review my text books on compressible flow

I wish some etarget mfrs did also

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Yes, your right. Shoot and leave. Well, that’s not been my intent. I have been on the road for the past 3 weeks, and Internet service is really tough, if not impossible for aliens. ☹ I do APOLOGIZE.

Competitor bashing? NOT! All we have ever asked for is objectiveness in E-Target comparing. If our objective hard questions hurt your feelings, I can’t help that.

Other vendors have publicly said on these forums, that the “closed 8 sensor” target is more accurate. That means absolutely nothing! HOW MUCH MORE ACCURATE, that’s the question begging to be answered.

I’ve heard World Class shooters say they took out their open system and it performed “flawlessly”, ad nauseam. That means absolutely nothing! I hear shooters here say their monitor is ‘pretty close’ to the actual. Oh really? Is that the standard?

I hear instructions on this forum that ranges need to decide for themselves how many missed shots are acceptable. HUGH! But cheap counts.

I’ve heard RO’s say “I don’t care how accurate my E-Targets are, as long as the club is happy”. That is derelict of his duty as far as I’m concerned. And that attitude might kill this “precision” sport. There has been copious instructions as to how critical, target set up is to precision. Oh really? How important it that?

Several of you make a habit of hammering the “high” price of the HEXTA target, and the cheap price of $800 targets. A question George is ‘what is the deciding factor to qualify for NRA sanctioned record keeping’ PRICE? If clubs “can not afford expensive targets”, then the qualifying standard becomes what-ever-you-can-afford? Is that what you are purporting?

We won’t talk price or cost until we know value. Until there is enough objective data from all systems to determine true specs, there is no point in comparing apples and oranges. You who are asking rhetorical questions seem to know the price anyhow, and how many targets we have out there. So, help your self. About our lack of sales, or small numbers gets under your skin? Don’t sweat the small stuff, I don’t. I will say our US customers have run 2 seasons with no missed shots, ghost shots, or gross errors. They don’t say “the target missed a shot? Just take another one”. There is more ‘fling & bling’ out there than diamonds.

Actually George, I’m going to be not far from you (relatively speaking). Maybe you and I should have a good Old Western Dual. You know the kind. Just you and I. Nobody else. Why don’t you meet me part way? Bridgeville Rifle or Reade Range are not far from you. You can mount one of your targets on mine, and we will do a precision test.

The testing procedure is downloadable at https://goballistic.us/testing/hex-system-tests/

Download Testing Procedure for E-Targets

On the road again.

 

[GSS]

Yes, your right. Shoot and leave. Well, that’s not been my intent. I have been on the road for the past 3 weeks, and Internet service is really tough, if not impossible for aliens. ☹ I do APOLOGIZE.

Competitor bashing? NOT! All we have ever asked for is objectiveness in E-Target comparing. If our objective hard questions hurt your feelings, I can’t help that.

Other vendors have publicly said on these forums, that the “closed 8 sensor” target is more accurate. That means absolutely nothing! HOW MUCH MORE ACCURATE, that’s the question begging to be answered.

I’ve heard World Class shooters say they took out their open system and it performed “flawlessly”, ad nauseam. That means absolutely nothing! I hear shooters here say their monitor is ‘pretty close’ to the actual. Oh really? Is that the standard?

I hear instructions on this forum that ranges need to decide for themselves how many missed shots are acceptable. HUGH! But cheap counts.

I’ve heard RO’s say “I don’t care how accurate my E-Targets are, as long as the club is happy”. That is derelict of his duty as far as I’m concerned. And that attitude might kill this “precision” sport. There has been copious instructions as to how critical, target set up is to precision. Oh really? How important it that?

Several of you make a habit of hammering the “high” price of the HEXTA target, and the cheap price of $800 targets. A question George is ‘what is the deciding factor to qualify for NRA sanctioned record keeping’ PRICE? If clubs “can not afford expensive targets”, then the qualifying standard becomes what-ever-you-can-afford? Is that what you are purporting?

We won’t talk price or cost until we know value. Until there is enough objective data from all systems to determine true specs, there is no point in comparing apples and oranges. You who are asking rhetorical questions seem to know the price anyhow, and how many targets we have out there. So, help your self. About our lack of sales, or small numbers gets under your skin? Don’t sweat the small stuff, I don’t. I will say our US customers have run 2 seasons with no missed shots, ghost shots, or gross errors. They don’t say “the target missed a shot? Just take another one”. There is more ‘fling & bling’ out there than diamonds.

Actually George, I’m going to be not far from you (relatively speaking). Maybe you and I should have a good Old Western Dual. You know the kind. Just you and I. Nobody else. Why don’t you meet me part way? Bridgeville Rifle or Reade Range are not far from you. You can mount one of your targets on mine, and we will do a precision test.

The testing procedure is downloadable at https://goballistic.us/testing/hex-system-tests/

Download Testing Procedure for E-Targets

On the road again.

Good Morning Rick,
Nobody else has taken the bait you left in your post above so I will respond one more time. Primarily because you directed statements and questions directly to me. In my book that warrants a response. ( Even tho Ray Charles could see this discussion is circular / endless )

Many are asking the questions of you that you will not answer.
Far from just me but that is fine that you chose to direct your focus of another post on me. I have nothing personal against you. If you have a grudge against me for any reason that is your choice and I will be perfectly fine living with that.

I have honored my word on your request to not publicly share the pricing you gave me and two other clubs for bulk pricing.

Adam / ShotMarker made the sale on those 38 Targets with a great product at a great price and excellent, professional prompt and polite customer relations. More are following suit in my area buying Adams products.

You can hold that against me if you like.
As I said, I'll be ok no matter if you love me or hate me... ;-)

I have repeatedly praised your system here and else where as a great system.
"The Ferrari of E Targets"... That is fact.

My season in New Hampshire just started last Saturday with a clinic for 45 Students and a league match the next day. I will be busy running and shooting matches every weekend from now until October.
Between working full time, taking care of two houses ( mine and elderly Moms ), being range governor of a 16 point 600 yard range and continuously working to help new shooters to grow the sport and still enjoy shooting myself I won't have time for the Duel (... sorry but lol ) you are proposing.

PLUS:
Jeff H, Frank N and the crew down there are top shelf great people. Why drag them into this BS...

Any Duels between E targets will hopefully be done openly, honestly and in an unbiased manner by the NRA and the CMP to decide which E Targets get accepted by those USA Sanctioning bodies.

It won't be on your home turf, mine or any other ET manufacturer's and that is the way it should be.

Unlike you or any other E target manufacturer,,,
I personally have nothing financially to gain or loose by the success or failure of any E Target company.

I wish you the best Sir

George Smith
www.nfga.org

---------- Edited to add something maybe worth reading to this post -----
I have shot at Bridgeville before. Once years ago with an A2 Service rifle and paper targets and once in Nov of 2017 on the HEX.
My standing to date personal high at 600 with a service rifle was shot that weekend on a HEX target. A 199-13X ..
http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/141170?inch=1
As you can see from the shot times I'm a slow (sling) shooter. I like to scope mirage / flags before I make sight adjustments and get on the gun and then again right after I break the shot looking for a change. I was a retard on the trigger for the 9 and 4 o'clock and called it there to myself as soon as I broke the shot.

My previous high at 600 was a 199-12X back in the A2 Sighted days on my home range in a State Championship.

Levity Alert...
I have been wondering since then, am I just that good ( ) or was the Hex not totally accurate... ????
I did not run down and verify each shot from the mini laptop to the paper using my honey I shrunk the kids glasses or a steel ruler and graph paper so I will never know...
-- End value added edit ------

I'm not religious but I do believe in Karma. Sometimes you get what ya give with me.. lol

 

[GSS]

I edited the above post to try to add a sliver of value and maybe a chuckle or two from some.

 

[corning]

---------- Edited to add something maybe worth reading to this post -----

Levity Alert...
I have been wondering since then, am I just that good ( ) or was the Hex not totally accurate... ????
I did not run down and verify each shot from the mini laptop to the paper using my honey I shrunk the kids glasses or a steel ruler and graph paper so I will never know...
-- End value added edit ------

George, you really are a stinker kicking over that stone!

John

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Good morning to you George. Thank you for your kind words. I won't answer questions that you have the answer to. Nor will I answer questions from those who are not interested in purchasing or knowing the objective differences between targets. I trust your club will have tons of fun on your targets!!! I hold nothing against you. You made a business decision as you manage your club. That is what we all do. Don't have second thoughts.

Back to the point I make over and over again. By what standard do we expect E-Targets to qualify for National Records or for NRA sanctioned matches?

I have met Adam and just recently his wife. I agree, they may well be great people. They have been very successful with their product, if you count sales volume as the only criteria. But again is that the criteria?

Your biggest problem, Adam's biggest problem, as is my biggest problem, we don't know what we don't know. Your opinion of your target means absolutely nothing (in all due respect). My opinion means nothing. The old saying "the proof is in the pudding". I'm saying the pudding is in objective testing! Have you published any XY coordinated test results on your target? Has anyone else? If so please post the link.

I'm disappointed you turned me down on meeting me half way. I agree Jeff H, and Frank N are the cream of the crop. I can assure you they would be more than happy to host you and I for a 2 in one test.

But seeing as you have rejected my offer, to meet me part way for a good natured dual, I might make time in my tight schedule to come to your range and do a test with you. It only needs to be, you and I to do a test. I'm not asking for any witnesses. Eh

I rest my case. All has been said.

 

[RDA72927]

I rest my case. All has been said.

And as many other post, you have said nothing.....

Robert

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Good morning to you George. Thank you for your kind words. I won't answer questions that you have the answer to. Nor will I answer questions from those who are not interested in purchasing or knowing the objective differences between targets. I trust your club will have tons of fun on your targets!!! I hold nothing against you. You made a business decision as you manage your club. That is what we all do. Don't have second thoughts.

Back to the point I make over and over again. By what standard do we expect E-Targets to qualify for National Records or for NRA sanctioned matches?

I have met Adam and just recently his wife. I agree, they may well be great people. They have been very successful with their product, if you count sales volume as the only criteria. But again is that the criteria?

Your biggest problem, Adam's biggest problem, as is my biggest problem, we don't know what we don't know. Your opinion of your target means absolutely nothing (in all due respect). My opinion means nothing. The old saying "the proof is in the pudding". I'm saying the pudding is in objective testing! Have you published any XY coordinated test results on your target? Has anyone else? If so please post the link.

I'm disappointed you turned me down on meeting me half way. I agree Jeff H, and Frank N are the cream of the crop. I can assure you they would be more than happy to host you and I for a 2 in one test.

But seeing as you have rejected my offer, to meet me part way for a good natured dual, I might make time in my tight schedule to come to your range and do a test with you. It only needs to be, you and I to do a test. I'm not asking for any witnesses. Eh

I rest my case. All has been said.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the actual saying is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." I haven't a clue when and how it got corrupted to "the proof is in the pudding," which is essentially meaningless. (Give it a second.)

Now, if you apply the proper saying to the present issue: "The proof of the pudding (the proof of the electronic targets) is in the eating (results from a match using these targets,)" you can see where they did the job at the recently concluded TSRA. 90-some people shot at 23 targets for a whole weekend. Unfortunately no records were broken, the conditions were that bad, which makes for a great match.

 

[sdean]

Now, if you apply the proper saying to the present issue: "The proof of the pudding (the proof of the electronic targets) is in the eating (results from a match using these targets,)" you can see where they did the job at the recently concluded TSRA. 90-some people shot at 23 targets for a whole weekend. Unfortunately no records were broken, the conditions were that bad, which makes for a great match.[/QUOTE]

And the winner is the same no matter what target is used.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Now, if you apply the proper saying to the present issue: "The proof of the pudding (the proof of the electronic targets) is in the eating (results from a match using these targets,)" you can see where they did the job at the recently concluded TSRA. 90-some people shot at 23 targets for a whole weekend. Unfortunately no records were broken, the conditions were that bad, which makes for a great match.

And the winner is the same no matter what target is used.

Exactly. Everyone suffered the same way and shot at the same type target.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Mmmm!!! Butterscotch pudding!!! All I heard was "pudding" and I totally forgot whatever it was that was being discussed.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Mmmm!!! Butterscotch pudding!!! All I heard was "pudding" and I totally forgot whatever it was that was being discussed.
View attachment 1103360

My favorite pudding. Don't care which e target I shoot on.

 

[XTR]

Exactly. Everyone suffered the same way and shot at the same type target.

Deny, you brought it up so I'll ask. Were there any issues? Because there is no record to demonstrate the accuracy of the targets I'll ask about the one issue we can see from the firing line...

Specifically how many people had dropped shots/refires?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Wad, I have no idea. I am aware of some a few cases where the shot was supposedly not picked up, and we also had crossfires. We had some of this at the very beginning, but once we got through the first relays, everything was pretty quit. This is always the case even with paper targets.

Once people got used to the system, I spent most of my non-shooting time taking pictures, and helping spectators and other with setting up their tablets and smartphones to access the system and monitor specific targets. I also dealt with the occasional crossfires, both on with the firer and the firee. Please note that I was one of a several people helping on the line but I found it very quiet most of the time.

At the end of the match, I asked Dan who was in the pits for the duration how he had seen things. He said fighting boredom was the biggest issue he faced. He did get to watch some movies on his equipment.

Overall, it was very uneventful compared to a regular paper match. When I ran the 600 yard TSRA last fall, I was constantly on the radio asking for marks and corrections. This was a very quiet match.

I'm sure there are some individual events that may have taken place, I didn't see everything and I tried to tune out that stuff when I'm shooting.

I think, heck, I KNOW Don Diffey, Tim Vaught, Nick Abbott, Doug Skogman and many others (apologies to those whom I did not mention, in my defense, I'm old) did a phenomenal job of setting up the etargets at Bayou and Adam provided great equipment and support.

On the other hand, I have stories and anecdotes about the conditions. I remember that one time when I was shooting alongside Jade and he was shooting in one condition while I was shooting in the exact reverse condition and we both got surprised at one (of many) points.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Let me just add, that we shot something like 20,000 rounds at the 23 targets over a period of three days, with very little issue. Far less than we would have with paper targets in my experience.

 

[rardoin]

Let me just add, that we shot something like 20,000 rounds at the 23 targets over a period of three days, with very little issue. Far less than we would have with paper targets in my experience.

....and everyone got the same pit service. Crossfires caused a little delay to ensure the correct call was made but pull targets sometimes take as long to get confirmation that a miss occurred.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

That would depend on the person responding to the call. I had some issue with one tablet that was fighting me, but I got the score corrected. The other times I dealt with a crossfire, it was just a few seconds. We will be doing more training with people. This will go away in time.