E-Targets for F-Class

[Boisblancboy]

I am not an F Class veteran but I agree without imposing a delay and or limiting to only seeing the last shot fired definitely changes the game. If I personally broke some record with the new system I’m not sure I could be very proud knowing that the new system did give me an advantage over whoever’s score previous this system.

I think a delay and only the last shot visible should be the way it is.

Is there a good contact number or email address to someone to voice our opinion to?

 

[coldboreshot]

I believe there should be a delay also, and you should only be able to see your last shot if it is an F-Class or Highpower match.

 

[coldboreshot]

I like the idea of the last shot in the sequence only but unfortunately, your permitted to plot shots manually in a notebook or on a plot sheet designed for such a purpose. i don't think you will ever be able to control this function.

 

[Erud]

I like the idea of the last shot in the sequence only but unfortunately, your permitted to plot shots manually in a notebook or on a plot sheet designed for such a purpose. i don't think you will ever be able to control this function.

Yes, but you have to take extra time and do extra work if you want that info when shooting on a paper target. The e-target just automatically shows it to you, including the plot-o-magic graph, which is a pretty advanced plotting technique that normally takes some time to learn and understand.

 

[coldboreshot]

I see your point.

 

[Rope2horns]

This is very simple. The use of E-targets has been proposed as a mechanism simply to facilitate and expedite F-Class matches. It should NOT be a mechanism to change the fundamentals ways F-Class matches are, and always have been, carried out. Get it? It isn't about things being the same for all shooters. It's about turning our sport into something totally different. Using E-targets with no delay and the ability to see all shots fired is a totally different animal than traditional F-Class has ever been, or ever should be, IMO. If anyone thinks that using E-Targets with no delay and all shots visible is the way to go, maybe you should start your own version of the sport and leave traditional F-Class as it is.

There is an additional reason for this. Not every club in this country is going to move to E-Targets. In fact, I suspect there will always be a fair number that don't, for a variety of reasons. IMO, "forcing" them to change by altering the fundamental way in which F-Class matches are carried out via the use of E-targets is a topic that is not even worth discussion. Are you going to essentially shut them out because they don't want to change?

Anyone in favor of E-targets can probably list a few major reasons why their use is perceived as an advantage over paper targets. These perceived advantages typically include shorter match times, not having to pull targets, and the additional statistic information available from most E-target systems. Not a single one of those perceived advantages will be lost if a 7 to 10 second delay is implemented. Not a single one of those perceived advantages will be lost if only the last shot is visible during a string.

So why the big push back against a short delay and having only one shot visible at a time from all the E-target fans? If you just want to take over and change F-Class to something different that YOU perceive is better, go start your own new class and do whatever you like. Otherwise, why not extend some flipping courtesy and consideration to your fellow shooters that may not like the idea of E-targets and accept a couple simple little limitations on their use? Limitations, which I reiterate, will keep the spirit of F-Class the way it has always been, and still allow all the perceived advantages of E-targets? Why is that such a problem?

I've never been an advocate of pair firing for a number of reasons. However, that may turn out to be the only way of keeping the E-target proponents from turning F-Class into something totally different than it ever has been, or was ever intended to be, IMO. At least with pair firing it wouldn't be much of an advantage to have a purpose-built machine gun F-Class rig as was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I can't spell eLeCtRoNiC TeRgEt....but I agree with this.

The change over to ETs in Western Australia is almost 100%. Kongsbergs in the larger clubs, Silver mountain and Shot Marker in the smaller clubs. There are no delays. Also there is a reasonable number of private ETs being used for practice as well. Hexta have a small footprint largely because of entry time to market. ETs have been used here for 10+ yrs at championship level.

The major difference between yall and us, is that we string fire and yall pair fire...the delay for yall is already "built in" so to speak.

 

[coldboreshot]

As I read this the question that comes to mind would be, a shooter that comes to a match, has there own very well paid personal target puller, never makes a trip to the pits the entire match is a cheater?

Where would the cheating take place anyway??? That paid puller you bring to the range is employed to take over your position in the pits, not pull the target while you shoot. When the pit rotation occurs, he/she should be rotating out as well. And if this is occurring at any venue where your "supplied" puller is marking your target, than other shooters should be immediately challenging this even before the match gets underway.

 

[Bindi2]

I can't spell eLeCtRoNiC TeRgEt....but I agree with this.




The major difference between yall and us, is that we string fire and yall pair fire...the delay for yall is already "built in" so to speak.

Aussie is string fire.

 

[Rope2horns]

Aussie is string fire.

My bad..for some reason I just assumed yall pair fired.

 

[GSS]

Jade, why would someone hold onto a delay, it was delayed because the human can only pull so fast, that is no longer the case, I don't see why we hold onto something that was was forced onto F Class because the only system avalibe took that long, and with regard to machine gunning, the wind is always the limiting factor and I have personally watched you take 30 min or 7 min, you shoot as fast an anyone when you need to.

Rule 10.17 and 10.17.1(g) have already addressed the issue and the NRA chose to use the words "If Practical" and "May"

so E-Target records are valid and here to stay, delays are up to the match director because not all systems are the same, I mean a system that includes the targets, range time constrains and system capabilities.

If the system is the same for every shooter who gets an advantage?

I will tell you without a doubt that records set with human pullers are subject to bias, cheating, friends and human error just to name a few of the reasons E-Targets Rule..

A record set on E targets should be the preferred format, you almost sound like there is some advantage to having a robot that does not like or hate you, that marks the target in about 1.5 seconds, that doesn't have a buddy shooting against you , that is not paid by another shooter, that is not on an opposing team the list goes on, an E target record is much much more reliable than any target ever shot before!!!!

Because you have set national records, I was there on one of them, why would you think an Human would be better?

Most of the time people on this forum run their mouths without ever saying anything how ever you have done things and shot records so your opinion matters and carry's some weight.

I just don't see how the delay would have changed anything we are talking about (the system takes about 1.5 without any delay) (fast really fast pullers are close to 7) so with a difference of 5.5 seconds or 1.83 minuets a match, just leave it at 0 and let them shoot, equal for everyone.

Times have changed and this is something that should change with it, just one more example, you broke someones FTR 1000 record and someone will if not already break yours,

why? How about a new bullets, how about a new by-pod how about a new scope, or barrel or no wind at Ben Avery see things change and records are there to be bettered.

Zero on the delay will not help you set a record, and with 1.83 mins why even wast the time.

Don Diffey

Excellent Post....

Many, many awesome points

I'm a service rifle shooter but I find the 7 second delay discussions interesting.

I am also a Range Operator and Match Director that has convinced the Trustees that approve funding to run my clubs 16 firing point 600 yard range to purchase 10 ShotMarker target systems so I follow most E target threads until they turn into useless rants. This thread so far is still going well and pretty interesting..

There is resistance to change to varying degrees in all humans.
I have had to learn to adapt to change quickly to do well in my profession so I can adapt to changes pretty well when needed. It s nice when the changes make sense tho but as all things in life that is not always the case.

This thread has me thinking
Maybe some people that are currently resisting and negative towards E target are current National Record Holders and they just don't want to see their record fall. I think we could all understand that. This would motivate some to work harder and go recapture the record again or others that don't want to put in that work to simply resist the change.

On the 7 second rule the only slight negative I can even think of for Clubs / Match Directors in NRA Registered Matches that choose to use it is that it can make it a little more difficult to sort out crossfires. All that is easily worked out regarding who crossfired if all shooters and scorers are paying attention. The velocity difference at the target for E targets can often help determine the correct shot value for the person that did not crossfire.

Mostly back to lurk for me here but great thread...

George

Edit to Add:
I know Aaron Farmer at the NRA is busting his @ss and has his hands full with National Records and other things but maybe if they secured / memorialized all pre Electronic Targets Nation Records and started fresh on E targets people wouldn't complain...

Aw never mind. People not complaining will never stop. we're human, I am guilty of complaining about the complaining to the point that complainers think I'm the problem... lol

 

[tvaught]

Don Diffey= The NRA High Power version of Donald Trump

 

[GSS]

Don Diffey= The NRA High Power version of Donald Trump

I like straight shooters that tell it like it is....

 

[RDA72927]

Don Diffey= The NRA High Power version of Donald Trump

Ohh, that stings. Post an insult but not your name.. Adds a lot to this thread..

Robert

 

[tvaught]

He's done a ton for Bayou, a lot for NRA High Power, often out of great personal sacrifice, against popular sentiment, without support.

The eTarget initiave was likely to end up being a divisive point somewhere along it's evolution, but will be eventually reflected on as one of the greatest advancements in High Power disciplines on nearly every point...growing the sport, getting new shooters to start, bring back seasoned ones that don't/can't perform competitive pit service, fair equitable pit service for all shooters, the ability to live stream our matches to other media streams, a club can efficiently organize training/clinics to advance thier members individual and team shooting. All great things.

The delay vs no delay issue at it's core is really a question of how true to tradition should we be when advancements in technology come along?

Not just delay vs no delay...but stocks, rests, bipods, optics, chronos, ballistics, bullets, powders, reloading practices. All of these have made a records vulnerable as of late. I think Norms is safe for a while though

Trump came along and saw the future, 5, 10, 15 years from now, people may ask why there's a delay. But that time isnt now, at the present. Etarget proliferation isn't widespread. Yet.

So I'd be willing to bet a Mueller Russian collusion investigation that in the interest of keeping the Champion level shooting by the shooters of Bayou relevant with the rest of clubs that don't have eTargets yet, and wanting to continue to attract the National level talent to Bayou for it's TSRA, that a delay will likely be implemented.

If you haven't had the chance to come out and shoot one of Trump's 1000 yard ShotMarker matches at Bayou I'd encourage attendance, it's a great opportunity to shoot along side Champions/Record holder names like Weaver, Littleton, Ingram, JennB, Skogman, Frederick, and so on. When the San Antonio, Cajuns, and North Texas crowds show up, it's even better.

 

[ShootDots]

He's done a ton for Bayou, a lot for High Power, often out of great personal sacrifice and against popular sentiment.

And he's done a lot of it out of his own pocket!

 

[corning]

This thread has me thinking

Maybe some people that are currently resisting and negative towards E target are current National Record Holders and they just don't want to see their record fall. I think we could all understand that. This would motivate some to work harder and go recapture the record again or others that don't want to put in that work to simply resist the change.

George,

Maybe I have too much faith in human nature, but I really don't think that is a fair statement.

Beyond that, why should/would a target scoring mechanism be a factor in making or breaking a national record?

John

 

[GSS]

Ohh, that stings. Post an insult but not your name.. Adds a lot to this thread..

Robert

My $.02
Names on accounts here only have value if your full name is listed and your location is filled out in your profile.

I stay positive whenever possible and would never say anything here / online that I wouldn't say in a friendly face to face conversation with anyone.

George Smith
Southern New Hampshre

 

[GSS]

George,

Maybe I have too much faith in human nature, but I really don't think that is a fair statement.

Beyond that, why should/would a target scoring mechanism be a factor in making or breaking a national record?

John

Hi John, I hope all is well and I agree with you.

I wrote, "maybe" and "some people" I purposely did not make a blanket statement as I most always avoid that.

Personally I would disagree with locking in any existing records because it would likely / possibly end up happening anytime there is a change to the sport.

Regarding cheating by human pullers on paper targets referenced in previous posts.
I have been at this heavy since 2003 and have been to the nationals at Camp Perry 10 - 11 times and I have only witnessed outright cheating once and that was at Perry in a 6 man team match. Locally ( all over the Northeast ranges of NH, Mass, Maine, and Vermont) I have never witnessed it 1st hand.

That is one of the biggest reasons I love this sport, have been in it so long and do all I do to run a range, help new shooters and work to grow the sport

As far as "why should/would a target scoring mechanism be a factor in making or breaking a national record?" maybe some of the people resisting E targets could chime in in that one as I don't see the case myself.

 

[Crow]

The change over to ETs in Western Australia is almost 100%. Kongsbergs in the larger clubs, Silver mountain and Shot Marker in the smaller clubs. There are no delays. Also there is a reasonable number of private ETs being used for practice as well. Hexta have a small footprint largely because of entry time to market. ETs have been used here for 10+ yrs at championship level.

Bindi2 - besides no delay, I'm curious about whether or not y'all choose to show all shots in a string, versus just the last one.

Also wonder how many guys who like the nostalgia of doing things the old-fashioned way think we'd be imposing a 7-second delay and only showing the last shot in a string if e-targets had been around at the inception of f-class?

Ever been to a bowling alley that didn't have an automatic pin setter and scoring? Me either... embrace the future, I say.

 

[243Mendoza]

Why are people so eager to hamstring new technology. It is similar to horse owners making a law that the newfangled
horseless carriages can go no faster than 10mph.