E-Targets for F-Class

[Nowhere Man]

Huh? E targets don’t change either of those problems.

Of course they don't.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I believe there should be a delay. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[Down South]

Leave it to Jade to bring this back up..

 

[Down South]

If we are adding time to imitate pulling targets, why not move the target to imitate mirage? Or, give the shooter an occasional 8 to imitate change in wind direction?

You lost me here......

 

[Erud]

I believe there should be a delay also, and you should only be able to see your last shot if it is an F-Class or Highpower match.

I think the second point here is very important, and often overlooked. Having your whole string plotted out for you in real time is a lot of extra information that you cannot get with a paper target unless you do extra work.

I definitely think there should be a delay also, and not just for F-Class. Sling records are dropping like flies, and the combination of e-targets and scopes definitely have something to do with it. A scope allows a good sling shooter to shoot pretty darned fast in a nice condition; not having to look through the spotter waiting for the target to come back up can shorten the shot process by 5 seconds or more. Not having to wait on the target allows shooters to shoot faster than was possible with even the best HM target pullers. I'd be just fine with a 7 (or whatever) second delay for all shooters.

 

[gibrass]

This sorta reminds me of trapshooting in the 60s when the better shooters learned to "read" the traps. Those who could not learn this technique complained. Apparently enough so that eventually, clubs that sponsored ATA sanctioned events were required to have traps with interrupters. Whichever way a shooting club sets their electronic targets to report shot values, its the same for every shooter. There are many ways to program the feedback given the shooter. Whatever method is used, it's the same for all shooters at that match. As a sling shooter, I can't shoot fast enough to benefit from instant shot values as compared to waiting 7 seconds or so. Makes no difference to me. The better shooters will always win no matter how fast or slow the targets are.

 

[David101]

There has been a very similar discussion here in Australia about introducing time delays not about records as we dont really have those. The decision this year at least was not to introduce a time delay.

In reading this thread I noticed something about sling shooters or TR as we call it and scopes. Not to take the thread off topic too much but could someone point me in a direction to read more about what this means.

 

[kybountyhunter]

There should be a 7 to 10 second delay... And I agree that if there isn't a delay, there shouldn't be a Regional, State, National matches shot on E-Targets... Nor should a National Record be set! On that note... I personally like and enjoy shooting on the E-Targets. For myself, I'm not going to determine what matches I attend wether there's E-Targets or not. I just want to shoot!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Yes, delay.

I can have the bolt closed on a fresh round before the target is all the way down with an average puller. That’s on a right/right action with no ejector. I can go faster.

We are running a 7 sec delay and not displaying the plot during firing at my local mid range club. I think this is the way it should be.

Hopefully the NRA rules committee will rule on this soon. If not, I’m building a “running” gun.

 

[whatsthediff]

I

Yes, delay.

I can have the bolt closed on a fresh round before the target is all the way down with an average puller. That’s on a right/right action with no ejector. I can go faster.

We are running a 7 sec delay and not displaying the plot during firing at my local mid range club. I think this is the way it should be.

Hopefully the NRA rules committee will rule on this soon. If not, I’m building a “running” gun.

The NRA has ruled see rule 10.17 and 10.17.1 (g) that is pretty clear they chose words "If Practical" and "May" that is not must, this allows each club to maximize the whole system and pick the time delay of 0 or more. I don't see the issue, you can only shoot fast if the wind allows and everyone on the line has the same time as the other guy, or we can go back to pullers and we all know that is so unfair, biased, cheating, but lets hold on the one more antiquated process, because, I don't know why, how about we all shoot Sierra 175's

Don Diffey

 

[skibar_tx]

I



The NRA has ruled see rule 10.17 and 10.17.1 (g) that is pretty clear they chose words "If Practical" and "May" that is not must, this allows each club to maximize the whole system and pick the time delay of 0 or more. I don't see the issue, you can only shoot fast if the wind allows and everyone on the line has the same time as the other guy, or we can go back to pullers and we all know that is so unfair, biased, cheating, but lets hold on the one more antiquated process, because, I don't know why, how about we all shoot Sierra 175's

Don Diffey

I find it interesting that your range is now registering their monthly matches, they are now using e-targets (no delays, and using the plotting feature), and now nearly every month I see a posting that someone set a new national record there. Surely, you can appreciate that something is amiss. Everything you are doing is legal, however I think the consensus is that we need a rule change to keep the standard close to being the same for all clubs.

 

[RDA72927]

I find it interesting that your range is now registering their monthly matches, they are now using e-targets (no delays, and using the plotting feature), and now nearly every month I see a posting that someone set a new national record there. Surely, you can appreciate that something is amiss. Everything you are doing is legal, however I think the consensus is that we need a rule change to keep the standard close to being the same for all clubs.

Skip,There has ALWAYS been records broke shooting at Bayou. Some of the top shooters in the country shoot there. But I don't see you shooting there much. Come on down, if the E-Target are the reason, you should do great...

 

[Ringostar]

This was all brought up at a shooters meeting during the 2014 nationals in Phoenix. The shooters voted and agreed on a 7 second delay at that time. It was brought up because Winnaquah wanted to bid for 16 and 17 nationals, but knew that they would need e targets in order to host enough shooters in a timely manner. I thought that the nra did put in a mandatory 7 second delay after that vote. Either way, come and try shooting at Capitan this Saturday. The wind switches while your bullet is still in flight. Edit: Oops it’s April 6th, not this weekend.

 

[whatsthediff]

As more and more clubs are going to E-targets these days what's your thoughts on a delay (7-10 sec) between shots to simulate the target being pulled like using manual targets? I was talking to a friend over the weekend and we were discussing this subject and he was telling me that at the Berger Nationals recently he timed many different pullers with a stop watch to see what was the "Average" time it took to pull the target from the time it started down to the time it hit the top back up. The average time was 10 seconds. I know some pullers are faster but I'm talking about average time. I personally think there should be a delay where you can't just machine gun rounds down range like benchrest but I'm curious to hear what other folks think on the subject.

Another question I have is what's everyone's thoughts on National records on E-Targets being used without a delay? I personally think there should be a separate category for records if shot on E-Targets without a delay. Lets hear it folks.

Jade, why would someone hold onto a delay, it was delayed because the human can only pull so fast, that is no longer the case, I don't see why we hold onto something that was was forced onto F Class because the only system avalibe took that long, and with regard to machine gunning, the wind is always the limiting factor and I have personally watched you take 30 min or 7 min, you shoot as fast an anyone when you need to. Rule 10.17 and 10.17.1(g) have already addressed the issue and the NRA chose to use the words "If Practical" and "May" so E-Target records are valid and here to stay, delays are up to the match director because not all systems are the same, I mean a system that includes the targets, range time constrains and system capabilities. If the system is the same for every shooter who gets an advantage? Why two category's, I will tell you without a doubt that records set with human pullers are subject to bias, cheating, friends and human error just to name a few of the reasons E-Targets Rule..A record set on E targets should be the preferred format, you almost sound like there is some advantage to having a robot that does not like or hate you, that marks the target in about 1.5 seconds, that doesn't have a buddy shooting against you , that is not paid by another shooter, that is not on an opposing team the list goes on, an E target record is much much more reliable than any target ever shot before!!!! Because you have set national records, I was there on one of them, why would you think an Human would be better? Most of the time people on this forum run their mouths without ever saying anything how ever you have done things and shot records so your opinion matters and carry's some weight. I just don't see how the delay would have changed anything we are talking about (the system takes about 1.5 without any delay) (fast really fast pullers are close to 7) so with a difference of 5.5 seconds or 1.83 minuets a match, just leave it at 0 and let them shoot, equal for everyone. Times have changed and this is something that should change with it, just one more example, you broke someones FTR 1000 record and someone will if not already break yours, why? How about a new bullets, how about a new by-pod how about a new scope, or barrel or no wind at Ben Avery see things change and records are there to be bettered. Zero on the delay will not help you set a record, and with 1.83 mins why even wast the time.

Don Diffey

 

[mgdietrich]

I believe that a time delay was voted on and required this last year at the high power committee meeting.

I agree that a delay should be required- would be fine with 10 second for both sling and F.

 

[skibar_tx]

I believe that a time delay was voted on and required this last year at the high power committee meeting.

I agree that a delay should be required- would be fine with 10 second for both sling and F.

When will that rule be in effect? And is it reported to the public in any forum, ie NRAHQ.

 

[whatsthediff]

I find it interesting that your range is now registering their monthly matches, they are now using e-targets (no delays, and using the plotting feature), and now nearly every month I see a posting that someone set a new national record there. Surely, you can appreciate that something is amiss. Everything you are doing is legal, however I think the consensus is that we need a rule change to keep the standard close to being the same for all clubs.


Skip, this looks personal, only one national records has been set on E-Targets at Bayou so why tell the lies, you don't like us, we all know it, we always registered our matches except the 3 months in the summer when we shot shot 40 shot matches to get gone before the heat, now with e targets we shoot 60 every month, and you need to keep your misinformation to your self, we are legal and we try and put on a great monthly match and other big events. Read the match bulletin and if you don't like the format don't come down and shoot. Nothing is the same for all clubs, wind, rain, elevation, shooting surface, each club has it's pros and cons and the delay feature is so trivial why would you even bother, with a difference of 1.83 min a match you act like we have destroyed the F class with all the national records, Bayou has a lot of records but because we have a lot of very good shooters, hell your own FTR team set a record at Bayou, was it because of the delay I don't think so, I think the team is very good and shot lights out, nothing to do with delay, so keep the cheap shots to yourself and quit running down Bayou. Love to have you come shoot the E Targets, I will even turn on the delay for you and you will see that it does not make a hill of beans difference.

Don Diffey

 

[Liven The Dream]

We have used Shot Marker System for our Prone NRA Sling and F-Class there is a delay
Plus we use a score keeper he records on paper . The score keeper call out the shots .
This all takes time , it may not be the same as a Puller ?
I would like to hear from someone that Shoots The Mid West Palma at Lodi Wisconsin they have used Silver Mountain for a couple years ? That is a hard group of Shooter ?

Best of luck with is quest .

 

[coldboreshot]

Obviously, the electronic targets have their particular issues but in a lot that I read here and what I am experiencing at different matches, the real issue is, F class is experiencing an evolution of its discipline. I watch shooters at different events free recoiling, no contact of the firing hand on the stock, monsterous front rests, rear bags that could sink an aircract carrier and now the latest...no cheek contact on the stocks themselves to the point that stocks are actually, purposely being altered and no one is enforcing this. The benchrest mindset is slowly infiltrating the discipline and its gotta stop somewhere or, just launch the next generation of rifle category. Its slipping away from the original base from which F class was derived. Many threads I read on the website seam to forget where F class originated. If we are going to experience this next evolution, than provisions need to be made to deal with it because the current rules are not being enforced at many matches, large or small. If you let this get out of control at the club level than you will end up with complacency across the board. And yes, this has everything to do with the forum topic because it is by these methods and applications that records are changing at an astronomical rate and score and it is what permits individuals to clear 20 rounds in less than 3 minutes. More than just enforcing a delay rule needs to be attended to here in the F class discipline.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I find it interesting that your range is now registering their monthly matches, they are now using e-targets (no delays, and using the plotting feature), and now nearly every month I see a posting that someone set a new national record there. Surely, you can appreciate that something is amiss. Everything you are doing is legal, however I think the consensus is that we need a rule change to keep the standard close to being the same for all clubs.


Skip, this looks personal, only one national records has been set on E-Targets at Bayou so why tell the lies, you don't like us, we all know it, we always registered our matches except the 3 months in the summer when we shot shot 40 shot matches to get gone before the heat, now with e targets we shoot 60 every month, and you need to keep your misinformation to your self, we are legal and we try and put on a great monthly match and other big events. Read the match bulletin and if you don't like the format don't come down and shoot. Nothing is the same for all clubs, wind, rain, elevation, shooting surface, each club has it's pros and cons and the delay feature is so trivial why would you even bother, with a difference of 1.83 min a match you act like we have destroyed the F class with all the national records, Bayou has a lot of records but because we have a lot of very good shooters, hell your own FTR team set a record at Bayou, was it because of the delay I don't think so, I think the team is very good and shot lights out, nothing to do with delay, so keep the cheap shots to yourself and quit running down Bayou. Love to have you come shoot the E Targets, I will even turn on the delay for you and you will see that it does not make a hill of beans difference.

Don Diffey

Good Post ! The Match Directors can set the Rules .... Any Shooter can file a complaint or call the NRA and ask a question? I know I did got Medal out of it .. High Score always Wins .