E-Targets for F-Class

[skibar_tx]

Don, this is not personal. I do not like a "no delay" system, period. Most clubs have the old fashioned targets, very few have e-targets. I personally don't care what clubs do in monthly matches, except when national records are concerned. The style of f-Class shooting will eventually change to take advantage of a "no delay" system and people will flock to it. Until most of the clubs in the nation are e-targets, it is only fair to keep the system as close to alike as possible. The first time we shot a national championship on e-targets, there was a 7 second delay. The people that envisioned the system and its first use in F-Class had thought it out perfectly. Somewhere along the line it was not clearly delineated in the current rule book, perhaps an oversight. My question to you is "Why are you so averse to having a 7 second delay".

 

[MattPeetz]

Jade, why would someone hold onto a delay, it was delayed because the human can only pull so fast, that is no longer the case, I don't see why we hold onto something that was was forced onto F Class because the only system avalibe took that long, and with regard to machine gunning, the wind is always the limiting factor and I have personally watched you take 30 min or 7 min, you shoot as fast an anyone when you need to. Rule 10.17 and 10.17.1(g) have already addressed the issue and the NRA chose to use the words "If Practical" and "May" so E-Target records are valid and here to stay, delays are up to the match director because not all systems are the same, I mean a system that includes the targets, range time constrains and system capabilities. If the system is the same for every shooter who gets an advantage? Why two category's, I will tell you without a doubt that records set with human pullers are subject to bias, cheating, friends and human error just to name a few of the reasons E-Targets Rule..A record set on E targets should be the preferred format, you almost sound like there is some advantage to having a robot that does not like or hate you, that marks the target in about 1.5 seconds, that doesn't have a buddy shooting against you , that is not paid by another shooter, that is not on an opposing team the list goes on, an E target record is much much more reliable than any target ever shot before!!!! Because you have set national records, I was there on one of them, why would you think an Human would be better? Most of the time people on this forum run their mouths without ever saying anything how ever you have done things and shot records so your opinion matters and carry's some weight. I just don't see how the delay would have changed anything we are talking about (the system takes about 1.5 without any delay) (fast really fast pullers are close to 7) so with a difference of 5.5 seconds or 1.83 minuets a match, just leave it at 0 and let them shoot, equal for everyone. Times have changed and this is something that should change with it, just one more example, you broke someones FTR 1000 record and someone will if not already break yours, why? How about a new bullets, how about a new by-pod how about a new scope, or barrel or no wind at Ben Avery see things change and records are there to be bettered. Zero on the delay will not help you set a record, and with 1.83 mins why even wast the time.

Don Diffey

I always find it funny when people start saying “ why have it forced on us”.
Hahaha. A delay was never forced on anyone. If anything f class was forced on us to string shoot. F Class is all about pair firing. Why don’t we go back to what it originally was meant to be and pair fire. This would help with the ET debate.
You don’t want to pair fire with me. You will have no chance to run and gun. You will be forced to read and shoot the condition at hand!!!!

 

[BP1]

I always find it funny when people start saying “ why have it forced on us”.
Hahaha. A delay was never forced on anyone. If anything f class was forced on us to string shoot. F Class is all about pair firing. Why don’t we go back to what it originally was meant to be and pair fire. This would help with the ET debate.
You don’t want to pair fire with me. You will have no chance to run and gun. You will be forced to read and shoot the condition at hand!!!!

Matt I like the way you think Sir.

 

[flintcreek6412]

At Camp Atterbury(CIHPRS) we use a 7 second delay. And if a NR is shot with a caliber other than .308 we change the bullet diameter for that string to see if it affects the record. It has yet to change a result but it's always possible. I'm pretty sure we were told by the NRA we must use both the 7 second delay and correct bullet diameter if we are to enter it as a NR but I haven't seen it in writing....just our policy I guess. We use SMT so it's pretty easy to do. It would be nice to see it standardized so we are all playing by the same rules.

 

[Medic505]

human pullers are subject to bias, cheating, friends and human error

As I read this the question that comes to mind would be, a shooter that comes to a match, has there own very well paid personal target puller, never makes a trip to the pits the entire match is a cheater?

 

[kybountyhunter]

As I read this the question that comes to mind would be, a shooter that comes to a match, has there own very well paid personal target puller, never makes a trip to the pits the entire match is a cheater?

In my opinion... I think everyone should have to pull targets, unless it's a medical reason! Since the rules allow paid pullers... I don't consider it cheating, even though I don't agree with allowing them.

 

[Colnagotex]

In my opinion... I think everyone should have to pull targets, unless it's a medical reason! Since the rules allow paid pullers... I don't consider it cheating, even though I don't agree with allowing them.

Mike—I’ll pay you to pull my targets the next time we’re at a match if you promise not to shoot

 

[Medic505]

You will be forced to read and shoot the condition at hand!!!!

The end result of this is it would make US, the United States, better shooters. I would be all for pair firing. No delay needed.

 

[Stingray]

Speaking as the Bayou Rifles Midrange Match Director and we have not had a National Record shot on the E-targets yet at Midrange. Our last records as in July of last year a 200-19 F-TR shot by Fredrik Sjodin on a paper target at 300 yards.
This record has not been posted yet. Worth mentioning is that his daughter and his son also both have National Records. Just another example of some of the great shooter that compete at Bayou.

BTW the no delay on the E-targets leads to a bad habit of looking at the Ipad immediately after firing the shot to see where it scored. I am trying to break myself of this habit as in the past after firing I will look at mirage and flags to see if my wind call was going to hold up. I have seen very skilled shooters exhibiting the same behavior.

 

[Acyr]

The end result of this is it would make US, the United States, better shooters. I would be all for pair firing. No delay needed.

I agree, pair firing would make all of us better shooters. On the plus side E Targets make it very easy to practice this way. With my SMT I try to take advantage of this any chance I get.

 

[Snuggie]

I really don’t give a crap about delay or no delay. I’m gonna shoot like I’m gonna shoot! Thank you.

 

[skibar_tx]

I really don’t give a crap about delay or no delay. I’m gonna shoot like I’m gonna shoot! Thank you.

MmmHmmmmm! You spent a lot of time shooting e-targets have you? Palo Alto got e-targets since October? MmmHmmmmm.........

 

[Liven The Dream]

Don, this is not personal. I do not like a "no delay" system, period. Most clubs have the old fashioned targets, very few have e-targets. I personally don't care what clubs do in monthly matches, except when national records are concerned. The style of f-Class shooting will eventually change to take advantage of a "no delay" system and people will flock to it. Until most of the clubs in the nation are e-targets, it is only fair to keep the system as close to alike as possible. The first time we shot a national championship on e-targets, there was a 7 second delay. The people that envisioned the system and its first use in F-Class had thought it out perfectly. Somewhere along the line it was not clearly delineated in the current rule book, perhaps an oversight. My question to you is "Why are you so averse to having a 7 second delay".

You miss read me .. I am not . The Match Director can add the delay . The NRA can set the rules . The point of calling them is the way to go .
I hope ..

 

[Ned Ludd]

This is very simple. The use of E-targets has been proposed as a mechanism simply to facilitate and expedite F-Class matches. It should NOT be a mechanism to change the fundamentals ways F-Class matches are, and always have been, carried out. Get it? It isn't about things being the same for all shooters. It's about turning our sport into something totally different. Using E-targets with no delay and the ability to see all shots fired is a totally different animal than traditional F-Class has ever been, or ever should be, IMO. If anyone thinks that using E-Targets with no delay and all shots visible is the way to go, maybe you should start your own version of the sport and leave traditional F-Class as it is.

There is an additional reason for this. Not every club in this country is going to move to E-Targets. In fact, I suspect there will always be a fair number that don't, for a variety of reasons. IMO, "forcing" them to change by altering the fundamental way in which F-Class matches are carried out via the use of E-targets is a topic that is not even worth discussion. Are you going to essentially shut them out because they don't want to change?

Anyone in favor of E-targets can probably list a few major reasons why their use is perceived as an advantage over paper targets. These perceived advantages typically include shorter match times, not having to pull targets, and the additional statistic information available from most E-target systems. Not a single one of those perceived advantages will be lost if a 7 to 10 second delay is implemented. Not a single one of those perceived advantages will be lost if only the last shot is visible during a string.

So why the big push back against a short delay and having only one shot visible at a time from all the E-target fans? If you just want to take over and change F-Class to something different that YOU perceive is better, go start your own new class and do whatever you like. Otherwise, why not extend some flipping courtesy and consideration to your fellow shooters that may not like the idea of E-targets and accept a couple simple little limitations on their use? Limitations, which I reiterate, will keep the spirit of F-Class the way it has always been, and still allow all the perceived advantages of E-targets? Why is that such a problem?

I've never been an advocate of pair firing for a number of reasons. However, that may turn out to be the only way of keeping the E-target proponents from turning F-Class into something totally different than it ever has been, or was ever intended to be, IMO. At least with pair firing it wouldn't be much of an advantage to have a purpose-built machine gun F-Class rig as was mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[skibar_tx]

You miss read me .. I am not . The Match Director can add the delay . The NRA can set the rules . The point of calling them is the way to go .
I hope ..

Sorry, I was not referring to you Don, but another Don. Won too many Dons.

 

[kybountyhunter]

Mike—I’ll pay you to pull my targets the next time we’re at a match if you promise not to shoot

Will pull targets for... Cracker Jack's! lol

 

[Ned Ludd]

Will pull targets for... Cracker Jack's!

Make sure you get to keep the "prize" as part of that deal!

 

[rardoin]

Using E-targets with no delay and the ability to see all shots fired is a totally different animal than traditional F-Class has ever been, or ever should be, IMO. If anyone thinks that using E-Targets with no delay and all shots visible is the way to go, maybe you should start your own version of the sport and leave traditional F-Class as it is.

That's it!!! E Class!!!

Seriously though, I see all sides to the story. I like pulling targets....most days....most pits. I like shooting on E-targets...all days. I do think they will help grow the sport and keep our physically limited shooters in the game longer....both major pluses IMO. My ideal would be only the last shot displayed. Delay or no delay matters not to me but I think pair firing rules would be great and more fun.

Robin

 

[coldboreshot]

Here's an idea...Since it is human nature to strive for the biggest and baddest (and in many cases, the most expensive) based on the latest innovations, then why not restrict the innovation at the top. How about, oh I don't know...restricting the level of riflescope power to let's say, 10-12x. I guarantee that would put things into perspective and keep shooters honest. Just a thought.

 

[Bindi2]

The change over to ETs in Western Australia is almost 100%. Kongsbergs in the larger clubs, Silver mountain and Shot Marker in the smaller clubs. There are no delays. Also there is a reasonable number of private ETs being used for practice as well. Hexta have a small footprint largely because of entry time to market. ETs have been used here for 10+ yrs at championship level.