Don't outspend them, but out work em!

[moondog]

Lots of good posts in this thread but no real concenus. I think it all matters but a bad wind call trumps everything else.

Absolutely! My 300PRC pushing a 215 way too hard, 3100fps for example. At 2000 yards a 1 mph pick up or let off equals 19" of drift! No wind flags out there, mirage, grass, and a quick prayer you make the right call. So yeah, wind for sure.

 

[tom]

Tune/rifle is more important in lr Benchrest I think. It's basically our own rules we made to handicap ourselves is the reason. It's quite likely you will be giving up some score if you wait for conditions to shoot your group, as there is no going back to sighters.

In our 2,000 yard group/score game we changed to where we just start a clock and the shooter picks.....night and day the groups and scores. But still need a good rifle, and if it's not tuned to the 6 kernels of powder it'll have 48 inches of vertical lol.

Tom

 

[BartsBullets]

It has many names: Motivation, Desire, Passion, Single-mindedness, Obsession.

The Top Guys have a “fire in their gut” to be the best. When you have that “fire”, you figure out what it takes to compete, to win, and to become the best. The equipment, skills, work, are simply byproducts.

You’ve got to be able to do it all!

Song by David Allan Coe

He said, "Drifter, can ya make folks cry when you play and sing?
Have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues?
Can you bend them guitar strings?"
He said, "Boy, can you make folks feel what you feel inside?
'Cause if you're big star bound let me warn ya, it's a long, hard ride"

Bart

 

[moondog]

Absolutely! My 300PRC pushing a 215 way too hard, 3100fps for example. At 2000 yards a 1 mph pick up or let off equals 19" of drift! No wind flags out there, mirage, grass, and a quick prayer you make the right call. So yeah, wind for sure.

Also, in reading Tony Bowers book section on tuning, he makes a point of a touch more vertical as he believes it helps buck the wind better. I've gone this route the last few years and believe it helps, but what does he know!

 

[Sleepyhollow]

There one aspect of shooting that I've not seen posted yet. You figure your tune and start learning flags enough to shoot "ok" now bring up the mental game !! Spit a shot or make a bad wind call quest what your mad your day is ruin. Right ? Having a positive mental attitude towards anything especially shooting will make a difference. It's a fact that it takes 5 good thoughts to erase 1 bad in our brain. Remember it's a marathon not sprint. Next round is a clean slade get back on the gun and agg them to death. I've learn alot in the last year. My mind frame was to achieve my best with what I could afford. Make friends with the best shooters in your format and don't be scared to ask dumb questions. Those guys have been there done that and basically seen it all. I know Speedy, Mike Ratigan and Jack Neary had answer lots of questions of mine we've become great friends because of that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It has many names: Motivation, Desire, Passion, Single-mindedness, Obsession.

The Top Guys have a “fire in their gut” to be the best. When you have that “fire”, you figure out what it takes to compete, to win, and to become the best. The equipment, skills, work, are simply byproducts.

You’ve got to be able to do it all!

Song by David Allan Coe

He said, "Drifter, can ya make folks cry when you play and sing?
Have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues?
Can you bend them guitar strings?"
He said, "Boy, can you make folks feel what you feel inside?
'Cause if you're big star bound let me warn ya, it's a long, hard ride"

Bart

I think you nailed it Bart! You have got to really WANT to do well in this game. It's not easy and there are no free rides, as in buying wins, for example. Yes, you can cheat yourself by having inferior equipment. Top notch equipment, to me, is a prerequisite.

Reminds me of when I have a customer come in and they see a couple of br rifles in the shop. They begin asking questions and invariably, they ask how much it costs to get into it. You tell them and they start running backwards. Then I look out the window at his $80,000 pickup truck pulling a $50,000 bass boat and that's when I tell them that it's not that expensive but you have to want it and you clearly don't want it bad enough. True story...Happened more than a time or two.

 

[TonyinKY]

Short Range Benchrest
Whoever finds the best condition first wins if all else is equal. I hate days when I can’t find a good condition but love the days when I only have to watch that one flag!

 

[Tempest]

Long range br can be an exercise in when Not to shoot.

Said this for years in F class. I know when to shoot. Knowing when NOT to is the key! Many have it figured out. I'm not one of them.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I'm going to argue that point just at tad constructively. First piece
of the puzzle is your optics. You can't hit what you can't see. It has
always been my opinion to get the best glass you can afford then
hang your rifle under it. In most cases, your optics will be the single
most expensive and important piece going to the range. Now we
can start tuning.....

I actually would argue that. So long as it holds zero the glass doesn't need to be great. I shot back back ones at 1k in a registered match with the worst glass I have ever owned on a br rifle. There's an x in the middle of the target but this scope will not resolve it in perfect conditions.

 

[Fuj]

In rebuttal I would suggest that a well tuned good tracking rifle will print good groups in the dark.

Ya' still to shoot your sighters first at each relay before you
turn it loose.

 

[Shooter13]

It has many names: Motivation, Desire, Passion, Single-mindedness, Obsession.

The Top Guys have a “fire in their gut” to be the best. When you have that “fire”, you figure out what it takes to compete, to win, and to become the best. The equipment, skills, work, are simply byproducts.

You’ve got to be able to do it all!

Song by David Allan Coe

He said, "Drifter, can ya make folks cry when you play and sing?
Have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues?
Can you bend them guitar strings?"
He said, "Boy, can you make folks feel what you feel inside?
'Cause if you're big star bound let me warn ya, it's a long, hard ride"

Bart

Yes but there is a sense of accomplishment and such a great ride with great people!

 

[std7mag]

I actually would argue that. So long as it holds zero the glass doesn't need to be great. I shot back back ones at 1k in a registered match with the worst glass I have ever owned on a br rifle. There's an x in the middle of the target but this scope will not resolve it in perfect conditions.

I'd agree with Fuj, having been the one with bad glass.
Of course i wasn't coming to the matches with match gear, but rather hunting gear.
Picking up 223 bullet holes at 300 yards with a 4-12X42 hunting scope fighting mirage is niegh on impossible with my eyes.
The 10-50X60 Sightron SIII was the single biggest, best upgrade i could have ever made!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'd agree with Fuj, having been the one with bad glass.
Of course i wasn't coming to the matches with match gear, but rather hunting gear.
Picking up 223 bullet holes at 300 yards with a 4-12X42 hunting scope fighting mirage is niegh on impossible with my eyes.
The 10-50X60 Sightron SIII was the single biggest, best upgrade i could have ever made!

I think that's a pretty extreme example. I agree that glass quality is way down the list of things it takes to be competitive in br, but good glass is very nice and other than price, has no down side. You simply had the wrong piece of equipment for the job at the time, imo.

 

[Mulligan]

One time I drew a bench between two of the better shooters at a sr benchrest match. I had only been shooting sr for a few years and still have a LONG way to go. So I decided to take the opportunity to just watch them shoot and see what I could learn. I figured, 7 minutes is plenty of time, and it likely would not change where I would finish the weekend. I normally suck at sr and this weekend was no different…….but…… I learned a LOT!
These two fellas could shoot. They had confidence, patience, focus, and determination. On the LV third target at 100, my timer showed 2 min left, I was getting twitchy. I was determined to learn, even if I didn’t place a shot on the target. I have practiced plenty in the comfort of my shop, I knew I only needed a fraction of a minute to get 5 on target without watching flags…..more if I intended to shoot well. The fella on my left, sent a round on his sighter, I’m watching the conditions…. He sends another.
The shooter on my right sends five in a blur all in a little 2, the fella on my left is picking his way through, looks like a mid 3. I’ve got 53 seconds, I’m good. I watch for the conditions to come back that I liked, I rattled my 5 down range into a mid 2 with 10 seconds to spare.
Watching what condition those two fellas chose to shoot in and, seeing the results compared to the other 30 or so shooters at the match was absolutely worth the price of admission.
Both new my strategy, and a few times I knew they were screwing with me. It was a fun exercise and I now load fast, and get back to the line and watch conditions as much as I can.
Mike, to answer your question, in my mind, tune comes first…F-class, LRBR, and SRBR. Obviously, you need the whole enchilada to finish well, but if the package ( trigger puller, loader, components, equipment) cannot shoot small in good conditions, it isn’t going to be much fun in challenging conditions.
CW

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Lots of good posts in this thread but no real concenus. I think it all matters but a bad wind call trumps everything else.

I want to add a bit to my post above. Yes, I think everything matters and yes, a bad wind call trumps everything else but the people that work the hardest and shoot the most, make fewer mistakes, be it a bad wind call or tuning the rifle. That sums up my position for this thread about as well as I can. It's also why I believe the most important aspect to winning is out working everyone else. We all get caught in a switch and we all make mistakes but good practice minimizes all mistakes...be it a wind call, gun handling, tuning, or something as simple as forgetting to load some piece of equipment in the truck before you leave. Hard work equates to being well prepared in all aspects. Yes, practice costs money but give me plenty of time and components over glass quality(for example) all day every day and twice on Sundays. Same goes for many of the gadgets that a lot of us spend money on. I think in many of those cases, that money would be better spent on an extra bbl and components and burn them up with GOOD practice.

I also think some people need less practice than others. I find I need to work hard to stay sharp. I've had a lot of things going on personally for the last 4 years roughly and it took a lot of my time away from shooting and staying on top of my game. It was a stressful time in my life and it took a lot of the "fire in my gut" that Bart mentioned away. When I won a nationals, I feel like I was riding the coat tail of work that I had done in prior years but my shooting has slipped a bit and last year, my lack of effort and desire showed up more than it had been...but was a steady decline, overall. Things are somewhat better personally and I intend to work hard during this off season to do what I can to get some of that edge back, but it will take time and work. It's definitely not something I can fix in a couple of days. It'll probably take closer to a couple of years. The good thing is, I feel better and I have a lot of that fire back. We'll see how it goes.

 

[ridgeway]

It has many names: Motivation, Desire, Passion, Single-mindedness, Obsession.

The Top Guys have a “fire in their gut” to be the best. When you have that “fire”, you figure out what it takes to compete, to win, and to become the best. The equipment, skills, work, are simply byproducts.

You’ve got to be able to do it all!

Song by David Allan Coe

He said, "Drifter, can ya make folks cry when you play and sing?
Have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues?
Can you bend them guitar strings?"
He said, "Boy, can you make folks feel what you feel inside?
'Cause if you're big star bound let me warn ya, it's a long, hard ride"

Bart

You got that right Bart!

 

[rayporter]

while i consider it a package deal, to include rifle and tune and flags and bench manners,

it you dont have a good tune how can you expect the flags to give reliable information?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

while i consider it a package deal, to include rifle and tune and flags and bench manners,

it you dont have a good tune how can you expect the flags to give reliable information?

Very true but wind can be worth several moa. I've never seen a br rifle that tune could be worth that much on.

 

[Peterson1]

"The harder you work
The luckier you will get"

CLP

 

[Rope2horns]

For a guy starting out in Fclass...I would say learn to tune your rifle good enough to get reliable wind feedback during your practice or within your string of fire. Then build on both.
A crappy rifle shoots fliers in all directions.....one up wind 9 flier can be the set up for several more and leave a new guy lost on a sinking ship.....bottom line try to start with a honest rifle if you plan to get serious. The learning curve will be shorter IMO.

The most accurate rifles don't win Fclass matches and neither do the worst ones.

A top tier wind reader that knows how to manage a not so in tune rifle can typically finish well, but may not be capable of winning a large event.

A shooter that has no wind reading skills but a great rifle can chase the spotter and will probably score decent in the mildest of conditions. Take the same shooter and throw in several switches or angle changes pickup/letoffs its a different game.