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Don't outspend them, but out work em!

Mike, define tune versus wind please. Are you referring to the BR crowd in this case?
Well, my last post hits on that a bit but I'm looking for all answers. My own personal opinion has been that matches are bought at the practice bench more than when we buy components or any other place. I realize, or think I do, that yardage and disciplines matter a great deal in the final standings as well as how some people answer my post. Bottom line, I have a lot of friends and customers that shoot long range. I want to put something together that i very competitive to come play with my peeps. Really, not only that as I've built a lot of guns for both short and long range but I'm looking for feedback from people that I'll use to guide me in a lot of things in regard to my build. Some are obvious...I mean, anybody can build something like everyone else has. I'm looking for the finer detiails to a build for specific distances and not looking for the status quo answers. I kinda already know that most people that work hardest, finish best. That's where the details come in. I will put the work in but this is about putting it to work as best I can, too, and I'm simly not someone who does anything simly because that's what everybody else does. By now, that should be obvious about me. Lol!

To answer your question...well, I don't have an answer except to say that to me, tune is where a gun shoots smallest and preferably over a wider rang of conditions and maybe even speeds. Wind is just that...something we have to learn, but with a compromise of wind bucking and pure accuracy, I'm a short range guy. In that game, and I feel it's the game that's most critical to pure accuracy, I still think not pulling the trigger at the wrong time or minimizing mistakes is more important than tune, a little. It just stands to reason, as distance increases, that will become more and more the case...to me. It's a roundabout way to get what I'm looking for but it doesn't change the answer, I don't think, to what matters most...equipment, tune or wind. Practice fixes all but the equipment aspect.

Real bottom line though...does practice outweigh tune. And I suspect the answer is yardage dependent to a large degree. Most of us have really good equipment. I know it's not all 100% equal but I think in short range, given a good tune(not a given) wind is what separates us more than equipment. And as yarage increases, I would logically believe that wind is even more important. I'm trying to give my opinion without influencing people from posting or it being a pee'ing contest. Is practice more or less valuable than tune and at what yardage? It's common for long range guys to shoot fast to catch a condition. Same with sr group shooters, to a degree. Score doesn't give that option very often. It's just hard to navigate a target that fast, to get all record shots in a condition. That brings up questions in regard to equipment(speed, not velocity), wind reading and loading for individual bbl characteristics I've had bbls that shot great both cold and warm but I've seen some that move a bit with heat too.
 
This is a good thread that has the potential to get into some good content
SRBR for me
in my experience tune is first without that you can’t steer it
next and almost as important as the first comes the flags
it takes years to start to really see your flags and begin to see when to start shooting

One thing I can offer on the flags take the head or tail wind as opposed to the cross wind every time.
Wait for it as long as you can

another thought. wait for anything except the straight cross wind
Great point Tim...WHEN to start your group or not. That's where I struggle with group shooting. But that's wind.
 
" Don't Out Spend Them But Out Work Them"

I guess once you have the machine up and running ( a competitive platform to hopefully find a good barrel for etc., and a rest that will work for you ) To out work them IS to outspend them by being financially able to put in the work. You're not going to do it dry-firing. Then there is the availability of the backyard range vs. having to pack up all your stuff and fire up the gas burner to get to the range. The guys that can outwork/spend their competitors practicing and competing will be able to do most of the winning.

Regards
Rick
 
This is my first year shooting Sr benchrest or shooting a ppc. There was enough info on here and the internet to get rifle to "shoot" . Then my homework and asking questions to guys who know get me to figure out ppc nodes and how to tune them. That took alot of shooting and tweaking. WRITE everything down was the first advice I got from a hall of fame member. Got some flags and will not fire a shot without them. Learning the flags and wind values is the is game changers. I force myself to shoot in the worst conditions possible to learn wind and wind effects on target. I learn with every group I shoot now. The same hall of fame member told me "you only loose if you don't learn, learn from your loses. That's has stuck with me from day one. Practice practice practice
 
@gunsandgunsmithing
The discipline you are shooting makes a difference. I only shoot F Class long range. We have to wait between each shot. That tends to favor good wind readers all other things being equal. So, a benchrest quality gun doesn't necessarily have an advantage unless you have the wind reading skills to steer it. I guess what I am saying is equipment alone doesn't guarantee anything. Wind practice becomes paramount at distance. So, if you want to shoot well at 1000 you need to practice in nasty conditions at 1000. Just bringing a sub 1/4 moa gun to the match isn't gonna do shit for you when your dropping points out the side.
 
You can learn a lot without even firing a shot, I wonder how many folks go out to the range and setup flags and rifle and just spend time watching the mirage and flags and keep mental notes on what they’re seeing as far as changes to the flags and mirage? I say show up with the best tuned gun you can, and a shit ton of patience and squeeze the trigger when the conditions present themselves.
 
I can do better than that and tell you exactly why I'm not doing better at 100yds. It's because if I were to set up flags, of 10 shooters mine would be the only ones out there. Being the new guy, I wasn't sure just how well it would go over if I did, so I just shot in the same blind conditions as everyone else. I'm not doing that again next year. I went back the day after the last match and set up flags in basically the same conditions. Shot a group that was .120 wide and .315 vertical. The predominate condition was a headwind. The owner of the range said that guys used to set up flags, but they didn't anymore. If I use flags and smoke their asses I bet they will lol.

I'm not dismissive of tune being a factor, as I'm sure that's a big part of it. My struggles with consistency this year was fighting a stock that wouldn't ride the bags at all, and getting the rest and bags to work the same each time I went. I am fortunate that both of my rifles wanted to shoot right away, so tuning didn't take long.

See when I pinned the rifle it shot great at 100, so I was able to get a bunch of things working, but pinning it at 200 didn't work at all, for me. The first rifle would jump clean off the rear bag in free recoil and spray shots everywhere, so I had to spend a bunch of time fixing that. After completely reshaping the buttstock it's a whole different animal. It even responded to pulling away from the front stop. Then I acquired a second rifle that a monkey could shoot.

My rifle deflects .11 in a 1mph crosswind at 100yds, and .44 at 200. You can either shoot a .220 group or a .880 group in the same conditions, just at a different yardage, and there's a whole lot more of that the farther out you go. That's why I'm more concerned with flags than tune at this point.
 
"Tune or learning how to tune vs how to read the flags and not make any mistakes."

Shooting 1&200yds group, score, and UBR. Occasionally I'll shoot at 300yds.

I believe that what you have listed are of equal importance. Mess up on any one or one shot and you'll probably not finish well. I do agree with the poster(s) that state that a really good tune helps with the wind, but to a point. There's times you just best not pull the trigger and that's where experience and bench manners take over. Which opens the door to proper practice, proper tune, and attention (execution) of details in your processes. JMHO WD
 
For me, the beautiful thing about Benchrest is that it demands excellence in everything. An excellent rifle with a really good barrel. A dialed-in tune. Good wind flags and the ability to quickly see subtle nuance in conditions. And top-tier rifle handling and bench manners.

Missing one of 'em is like dropping a point in SR Score. It becomes very, very difficult to be competitive.

The top shooters manage to conjure all those things.
 
In f class you can have the best equipment money can buy and a cupboard full of hummers but it's the time you put in is what's get the the results.

You need to take the time to get multiple barrels tuned and understand each one inside and out.

You need sort and prep 100s of cases and projectiles and load 100s of rounds to I high standard.

You need to take the time to learn how to READ the wind and develop different strategies for different types of conditions. Read the wind not just pick a patch and run and gun.

No book or forum will teach you as much as putting rounds down range.
 
Ignition, and actions. Most important part of a rifle. A good platform seems to always get good barrels. If you have a good rifle, tune tune tune. Learn to tune and you will win.
I'm going to argue that point just at tad constructively. First piece
of the puzzle is your optics. You can't hit what you can't see. It has
always been my opinion to get the best glass you can afford then
hang your rifle under it. In most cases, your optics will be the single
most expensive and important piece going to the range. Now we
can start tuning.....
 
Time & Money.

It's amazing what one can accomplish with enough of both of these.
A few years ago, i had the time to be able to shoot more. But didn't have the funds to get good equipment to begin with, let alone upgrade.
I did what i could, as i could.
Now i'm getting to the point financially where i can get/upgrade equipment.
But working 6 days a week to do it. Hence i think i made 6 trips to the range this last year. Didn't get to shoot a single match.
 
I fully believe in the adage: "You win a match at the reloading bench, you lose a match at the shooting bench."

At my stage of shooting I am better at the tuning than I am wind reading. So I make sure my tuning/reloading is 100% and then focus on my bench/wind call skills as I go.

I am fortunate to live in an area where long and short range BR, mid and long range F-class, and multiple other disciplines are shot. A lot of skilled shooters to learn from.

Currently I am transitioning into SR BR from long range. And wind flags seem to be a relative subject, or at least one that is viewed in varying importance due to the format. And I can see merit from each side. The only thing I would completely side with the SR guys on is that any discipline should be using them when tuning.
The SR BR people i've shot with won't do a 100 yard match without flags. Much less longer ranges.
One (only one of many) problems i've had is being able to see the flags, while looking through the scope too.
The flags are usually far enough to the side where i can't see them.
Maybe done intentionally?? ;)
 
Aren’t these like kissing cousins or maybe brothers and sisters? If you can tune great but can’t read the wind flags or vice versa I think you’re going to end up on the same place on the scoring chart. I think most of us can see our failures and turn that around to work on so that we get better at it, that in turn helps us bringing our game up all the way around
 
I'm going to argue that point just at tad constructively. First piece
of the puzzle is your optics. You can't hit what you can't see. It has
always been my opinion to get the best glass you can afford then
hang your rifle under it. In most cases, your optics will be the single
most expensive and important piece going to the range. Now we
can start tuning.....
In rebuttal I would suggest that a well tuned good tracking rifle will print good groups in the dark.
 

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