dies that dont size enough

[fguffey]

Scrobe the case body/shoulder juncture.

Jelrod1, 80+ years ago a smith, military type and author decide to move the shoulder of a chamber forward .080”, he knew a case would not stretch .080” with out case head separation,
in his effort, he chambered standard 30/06 round in his new creation, the Hatcher 30/06 +.080”, after firing the short cases he ejected them, to his surprise, no case head separation and his cases did not stretch, the shoulder of the fired cases did not move. He did not measure before and again after, he did not scribe the locating of the case body/shoulder juncture, he did not have a clue as to what happened, moral of the story, someone handed Hatcher a 03 Springfield that was a little different than all the other 03 Springfield rifles being built.



Guys in the shop, in about 1911 Springfield found there was an improvement in accuracy, they did not have a ‘leaver policy’ they could not leave-er along, they had to determine the reason, finally they traced the improvement to a rifling machine, someone had set it to 1 turn in 11” instead of the 1 to 10, the ship hit the sand, the machine was corrected? with the understanding they were being paid to rifle barrels to 1 to 10. Like they were expecting to get paid more if they improved accuracy? Anyhow, it takes a lot of digging to find the information, again, had someone handed Hatcher another rifle Hatcher would have looked like a genius. His experiment was designed to determine how much a case would stretch before insipient case head separation. Hatchers cases did not stretch.

F. Guffey

 

[s100whunter]

If you use a coax press with no shellholder trimming the bottom of the die is the only option which I have done many times .When I chamber a barrel I like no more then 1 thousands headspace so my chamber is on the tight end and the resizeing die is on the big end

 

[jo191145]

Well fguffy got this dummy wondering sumptin,,,,

Will all go gauges fit inside all FL dies without causing a major "boy do I feel stupid for having done that" move?
Like Boyd I've never felt the need to shove a close fitting piece of steel into another close fitting piece of steel that aren't manufactured to airplane specs.

Just wonderin.The go-gage will drop into the die, the go-gage will drop into the Wilson case gage, when placed into a chamber the go-gage touches the shoulder of the chamber and or the bolt face.



Then there is that part about using a shell holder, most go-gages will not fit a shell holder, not a problem, the shell holder deck height is .125”, if the gage does not fit the shell holder use a larger shell holder, instead of using a #3 shell holder for 30/06, use a #4 shell holder.

F. Guffey

Thanks for the reply. I'll take your word for it. To each their own but I personally see no reason to ever find out. I don't cut my own chambers and for headspacing Savages I already have my own preferred technique.

 

[bigedp51]

Jelrod1, 80+ years ago a smith, military type and author decide to move the shoulder of a chamber forward .080”, he knew a case would not stretch .080” with out case head separation,
in his effort, he chambered standard 30/06 round in his new creation, the Hatcher 30/06 +.080”, after firing the short cases he ejected them, to his surprise, no case head separation and his cases did not stretch, the shoulder of the fired cases did not move. genius. His experiment was designed to determine how much a case would stretch before insipient case head separation. Hatchers cases did not stretch.

F. Guffey

Dear F. Guffey

Your almost as smart as Hatcher was, BUT here is the problem with your statement and Hatcher's headspace experiment. The rifle used for this experiment had a Mauser type claw extractor that held the cartridge case against the bolt face. The case shoulder moved forward to fit the reamed chamber when fired and the cartridge case never had .080 head clearance to have a case head separation. Or to put the math another way how does a firing pin with .040 protrusion hit the primer that's .080 from the bolt face?

Your really brilliant fguffey. :




Below is a British No.1 Enfield bolt holding the case against the bolt face............oops, the British No.1 Enfield rifle doesn't have a Mauser type claw extractor and when the bolt closes the extractor moves away from the rim. Now why do you think so many people complain about British Enfield headspace and why they have so many case head separations.

 

[fguffey]

I have 303 take-off barrels, at least 4, three are from P14 rebuilds, POINT? I can not drive a case into the chamber with a shop hammer and large drift, all of my 303 cases for rifles and barrels have rims. A bad habit: Shooting the 303 without a clue, the thickness of the rim is published, the difference between the head space and thickness is a known specification, if there is a fault it lies with manufacturers that do not manufacture cases for reloaders/shooters that know what they are doing. Then there are reloaders/shooters that do not know how to tighten/reduce the difference between the rim and head space.

I did not expect a response from a resource type on the 03 Springfield, I was correct, I did not receive a response from someone that is familiar with the 03 Springfield, and I did say Hatcher used the wrong rifle, a knowledgeable 03 owner, collector, shooter, reloader can tell you ‘real quick’ the difference in the Mauser and Springfield, without showing off.

And I said scribe the shoulder ‘FIRST!’, Hatcher did not scrip the case body/shoulder juncture, therefore, he did not have a clue.

Again, a man made a reamer, he took a magnificent 03 rifle and built a magnificent rifle with a wildcat chamber, he went to the range and had 4 case head separations out of 8 fired cases, then he informed me I was wrong.
I resounded with, ‘I could have told you it was going to happen before you left the shop, I could have corrected the problem at the rang long enough for you to fire form your cases’ then I explained there are exceptions, back to “I can modify a go-gage to a go to-infinity gage” and it seems precision shooters, bench resters and want to be accepted shooters just scorn the day they ever learn to read because they react in dysfunctional ways.

Back to Hatcher, his case shortened, had he detected the case getting longer he would have had a warning, he did not go straight to .080”, he reamed the chamber by moving the shoulder forward progressively, again, one more time, I say again, he did not have a clue, he did not scribe the case body should juncture, he should have said “HAND ME ANOTHER RIFLE! RAT NOW!! but, he didn’t.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

I did not expect a response from a resource type on the 03 Springfield, I was correct, I did not receive a response from someone that is familiar with the 03 Springfield, and I did say Hatcher used the wrong rifle, a knowledgeable 03 owner, collector, shooter, reloader can tell you ‘real quick’ the difference in the Mauser and Springfield, without showing off.

Back to Hatcher, his case shortened, had he detected the case getting longer he would have had a warning, he did not go straight to .080”, he reamed the chamber by moving the shoulder forward progressively, again, one more time, I say again, he did not have a clue, he did not scribe the case body should juncture, he should have said “HAND ME ANOTHER RIFLE! RAT NOW!! but, he didn’t.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

Hatcher didn't use a 03 Springfield for his headspace test, Hatcher used a M1917 Enfield rifle. He stopped the test when it got too dark to see after reaming the chamber shoulder for several hours. The case shoulders moved forward when fired and he did not have any case head separations.

Again how does a firing pin hit the primer when its .080 from the bolt face or twice the length of the firing pin.

The Mauser type claw extractor held the case against the bolt face, the case went bang and the shoulder moved forward, end of story.

I would suggest you go back and actually read Hatchers Notebook and get your facts straight and STOP perpetuating internet myths.



And F. Guffey my No.4 Mk.2 .303 Enfield rifle below has had the headspace adjusted from just kissing the rear of the case to .010 over maximum testing case stretch in the web. (.059 to .084)

 

[fguffey]

"The Mauser type claw extractor held the case against the bolt face, the case went bang and the shoulder moved forward, end of story"

Again, the shoulder on the cases fired in Hatchers modified chamber die not move. The shoulder did not move forward, again, had he scribed the case body/shoulder juncture there would have been a remove chance he could have determined why his hypotheses did not work.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

F. Guffey

Read pages 248 and 249 of Hatchers Notebook and STOP spreading bovine scat all over this forum.

Below from page 249 of Hatcher's Notebook (minus all the bovine scat)



On a rifle with a Mauser type claw extractor excess headspace means very little as the case is held against the bolt face by the extractor. Hatcher reamed the chamber out longer than the firing pin protrusion and the case still went bang. End of story!

P.S. And my 03-A4 Springfield rifle NEVER had a case head seperation.

 

[tomj44]

See what you started chevytruck_83 ???. That's what I like about this place. Even when people disagree I learn ;D

 

[fguffey]

We all know how these threads end, what's different about this thread? The beginning, most threads start with micro managing the step sequence between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel.

Goes something like: The tripper is pulled, the firing pin strikes the primer, and then? Everything runs to the front of the chamber, the case, the powder, the bullet and the primer, then the shoulder of the case strikes the shoulder of the chamber. Then the expanded gases cause the case to expand and lock onto the chamber. When the case locks onto the chamber the case head is not in contact with the bolt face, and there lies the problem, case stretch, the case stretch is between the case body and case head, anyhow, to me that is most boring, reason? as I have always explained, I have fired 8mm57 in 8mm/06 chambers, for those that can do the math the 8mm/06 chamber length from the shoulder back to the bolt face is .127” longer than the chamber length of the 8mm57, again, the shoulder of the 8mm57 did not move forward, it was erased and became part of the case body, the neck became the shoulder with a hint of a neck.

Back to Hatcher and those that insist the shoulder moved forward, Hatchers shoulder did not move, it was erased and became part of the case body, My 8mm57 cases and Hatchers 30/06 cases shortened in length, not between the case head and shoulder but in length between the mouth of the case to the case head.

Back to the firing pin driving all that weight forward, the case, the powder and the bullet, I will throw the primer in for free. That does not happen in my rifles, the primer is crushed by the firing pin, and still, there is not enough curiosity created to cause anyone to wonder how the firing pin can out run the blast of the primer.

Ed, I hear you hollering, what holds the case to the rear? No matter how slow I type when I hit the send button it all comes out at the same speed.
Back to “What holds the case to the rear?” Typing as slow as I can, both control feed and push feed have extractors, the extractor on both the push feed and control feed hold the case to the rear, problem, the micro manager that describes the case, powder and bullet with the primer thrown in never consider the extractor for the push feed is not as efficient as ‘some’ Mauser claw type extractors, beyond them is the ability to consider the possibility it is not the firing pin strike is not the cause of the defeat of the design.

We all know how these threads ends, and it is your turn to describe the 308 W being fired in the 30/06 chamber. We both know the case 8is extracted with a hint of a shoulder, no neck, again, to accomplish that the case is not able to move forward, conflict? Push feed and control feed, micro managers can not have it both ways, I have always contended the shoulder/case body was larger in diameter than the 30/06 chamber at the contact point between the shoulder of the case and chamber. Again, the 30/06 chamber reamer can not clean up a 308W chamber, I do not keep a list of friends that do not measure before and again after, I do remember friends that call and ask, “What causes this ring on my fired cases”.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Ed., forgive, the 303 British gages, nice but not necessary, again, Hollering is rude, I refuse to holler, again, determining the clearance/difference between the chamber and length of the case cost me nothing but a small amount of time, again I am surrounded with tools and gages, you will not believe this, but, I took a picture of my gages the other day, the picture weighed 500 lbs+.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

With the 1917 they had head space of the first kind?

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Again, a rifle was built, the builder made the reamer, when finished he went to the range and had case head separation on 4 out of 8 cases, the rifle was a magnificent 03 Springfield, I told him I could have told him if it was and or was not going to happen, I also informed me I could have met him at the range and ‘fixed? the problem temporarly/long enough for him to fire form his cases. After that he built 5 more magnificent wildcat rifles using the Springfield 03 and A3, one of those did not work as design, he called again, I used tools, after he left he got on the Internet and searched etc., nothing, then he called again and wanted to know what the tools were called, I responded with ‘my tools’.

F. Guffey

 

[jelrod1]

Now 500lb pictures, Come on man. What kinds of responses do you think you are going to get when you come in first insulting the members. Whether you want to say a shoulder moved forward or that it is "erased" is pointless. Fire forming results in a case that has a shoulder farther forward than it was. Terminology doesn't change that. This thread had good intentions and things were learned from it.

 

[fguffey]

You have two standards ?!

Case stretch: That is the point. Again, My cases did not experience case stretch, the cases got shorter, Hatcher cases when fired in his modified chamber did not stretch and the shoulder did not move forward, had his shoulder moved forward they would have done so without the case head, because, again, he knew the case would not stretch .080”. Then there was a question of sort about control feed and push feed, and “What holds the case to the rear”?

Forever, the forums have failed to recognize there are different designs of receivers, one explanation does not cover the possibilities. I will assume you missed the part about the/my firing pin crushing my primers before the case, powder and bullet knew their little buddy the primer was crushed.

I did say gages are nice, and I said they were not necessary and that upsets someone?

In the rear world outside of the Internet when someone is showing off and trying to have fun at someone's else's expense, the 500 lb picture is funny to everyone but the parson that is showing off.

Have you ever heard of an Alabama Leg dog? After I learned to deal with them I learned a lot about dealing with people.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

F. Guffey

There isn't a 500 pound gorilla in the room, but there is a man named F. Guffey who can't seem to remember what he has read. The cut and paste below are the facts and are not distorted or twisted into myth or internet rumor. The Mauser type extractor held the case against the bolt face, the case went "bang" and the shoulder of the case moved forward, end of story. No magic feeler gauges, no headspace gauges inside reloading dies and no rambling on about bovine scat.

Below is the entire section from "Hatchers Notebook" on what F. Guffey is rambling about and cant get his facts and the story straight.

Start reading from "Headspace Specifications".









F. Guffey, headspace is also the distance between your ears and what you have between them and how you use it.

All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read.

(and try and remember it correctly) :

 

[bigedp51]

Hatcher didn't do this but can anyone tell me if the shoulder of the case moved forward after it was fired in a chamber with 1/2 inch of excess headspace?





I'll wait for F. Guffeys reply and see what he has to say about the shoulder of the case not moving. :

 

[BoydAllen]

Perhaps...as the round was chambered, from the clip, the resistance to forward movement, out of the clip, combined with the inertia of the round were enough, when combined with the force of the advancing bolt, to cause the extractor to override the case's rim, compressing the the ejector in the process, and trapping the case head in close proximity of the bolt face. From there on out it is the same as has been mentioned for the Enfield.

 

[bigedp51]

"Perhaps" the military knew how to design a military rifle before they were forced to contract out its rifles to civilian contractors, close down Springfield Armory and buy the M16 rifle. :

 

[BoydAllen]

Yea verily