dies that dont size enough

[CatShooter]

KISS=Keep it simple stupid, so everyone understands.

That, obviously, is not enough.

 

[bigedp51]

KISS=Keep it simple stupid, so everyone understands.

That, obviously, is not enough.

Actually it is enough, it doesn't have to be Silicone Carbide paper, all it needs to be is wet and dry sand paper so the paper and grit does not turn into a paper grit slurry with a big hole in the paper when it gets wet. And you can't lap something in a 6x6 area, starting, stopping, turning abruptly and taking short strokes will round the edges of what your are lapping.

When explaining something you kept it in simple terms so new untrained people get the big picture. And arguing like idiots over terminology like what went on the the bullet runout thread is a good example of this and what was said here.

 

[CatShooter]

BigEd...

We need a bunch of pictures of the difference between sand and silicone carbide paper, and animated .gifs on how to do it... cuz it is over everyone's head.

 

[bigedp51]

BigEd...

We need a bunch of pictures of the difference between sand and silicone carbide paper, and animated .gifs on how to do it... cuz it is over everyone's head.

I fully understand your problem CatShooter, during the Viet Nam war and while the draft was still going on all Army manuals were written at an 8th grade level to make sure Army enlisted personnel and second lieutenants would comprehend what they read.

"BUT" there is a difference between correctly lapping something with "sandpaper" and being a pain in the .........................



How about a sand sculpture of a cat shooter. :



Or two cats listening to Rap Music.

 

[jo191145]

BigEd...

We need a bunch of pictures of the difference between sand and silicone carbide paper, and animated .gifs on how to do it... cuz it is over everyone's head.

I fully understand your problem CatShooter, during the Viet Nam war and while the draft was still going on all Army manuals were written at an 8th grade level to make sure Army enlisted personnel and second lieutenants would comprehend what they read.

"BUT" there is a difference between correctly lapping something with "sandpaper" and being a pain in the .........................

That picture explains a lot.

Thinning a shell holder is not rocket science. Take Boyds advice and keep measuring the thickness around the circumference as you go. Obviously it thins near the gate faster.
More free advice. Check the squareness of the Ram before you start. Mine was way off and I filed it flat/square as best I could without an engineering degree. Its material removed so IMO you should start there. Just remember that action could throw off all the other dies previously set.

 

[Old Navy]

Don't understand why everyone assumes the shell hold is the problem and not the die. Correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that the die is not designed to re-size the head of the case. If this was a common problem with the holders Redding would make a set of minus holders. Later! Frank

 

[BoydAllen]

FL dies are designed to size all parts of a case that come in contact with a barrel's chamber. Between the tolerances for headspace chamber dimensions, dies and shell holders, it sometimes happens that there is stack in the direction that leaves the die unable to be set to bump the shoulder of a fired case to create the desired amount of clearance. In these cases the reloader is left with a few choices. He can return the die and shell holder to their manufacturer with some fired cases and ask that they remedy the situation, or he can shorten the die or shell holder. Of these last two options, I prefer thinning down the shell holder. They are unhardened, and easy to work on. Dies are hard, and more difficult to shorten properly. One of the good things about hobbies is that we get to decide how we will accomplish (or at least attempt) a given task. Although I have not found that thinning down shell holders has been necessary for my factory rifles, I have done so for custom barrel jobs with match chambers. It is really no big deal, a sort of course of least resistance thing. Of course I work carefully measuring with a micrometer as I go.

 

[chevytruck_83]

reading all the posts its very clear that taking a little off the top of the shell holder is the easiest way to gain more sizing stroke. weather its the die, shell holder or a combination is kinda superfluous. ill probably replace his shell holder with a new one and experiment with it as a learning experience. as for the die I recommended he just shell out the dough and get whiddens full length die. I've heard great things about them. thanks everyone for the input. its nice to hear both the easy ways and the best way to properly do it.

 

[LesWard]

Well you folks have forced me to go measure my shell holders and guess what they vary as much as .003.
Always wondered why my 6/250 had a stiff bolt close on occasion.
I like Boyd's method of taking down the holder.

Aloha, Les

 

[CatShooter]

Well you folks have forced me to go measure my shell holders and guess what they vary as much as .003.
Always wondered why my 6/250 had a stiff bolt close on occasion.
I like Boyd's method of taking down the holder.

Aloha, Les

While there is some variation in shell holders, it is the dies the vary the most. Buy 10 FL dies from ANY manufacture and the cases from them will all have different headspace measurements.

It just is what it is... you can't get 0.0005" precision for $29.95

 

[jo191145]

Don't understand why everyone assumes the shell hold is the problem and not the die. Correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that the die is not designed to re-size the head of the case. If this was a common problem with the holders Redding would make a set of minus holders. Later! Frank

Personally a set of minus holders would be of more use than their silly competition holders IMO.
Problem is too many folks would use them without knowing why. Liability warrants no company dare make them

Can you imagine the influx of posts on a forum such as this concerning case head separations?

 

[jmatters]

I had a similar issue with a RCBS 223 SB sizer. Called the factory, told them I had the die locked into contact with the shellholder, and still couldn't resize the brass enough.
The REAL KISS solution:
Told me to unlock it, screw it another turn and try it again. The dies were made to size "overcenter".
Tried it. Problem solved.
I'm just saying....

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that once you have a die adjusted to make solid contact with the shell holder, with a case that is being sized in place, any more adjustment is superfluous. What they did was recommend an overkill adjustment, that would give you the most that your die could accomplish. I like to adjust dies with a little more subtly these days ;D, although in the deep dark past, I might have been just the fellow they had in mind for that sort of advice. In a previous post, I mentioned that for a particular set of RCBS FL dies, in a Rockchucker, the difference between adjusting the die to touch the shell holder at the top of the ram stroke, with no case in place, and adjusting it so that it touched the shell holder while FL sizing a fired case was .006, and since a full turn of the die gives about .071 of adjustment, it only took a little less than a tenth of a turn to get there. Less strain on the press that way.

 

[jmatters]

Boyd,
I might have mis-remembered the full turn thing, since that .006" was about all I needed. Plus, I'm talking 223 AR loads here, not BR... For my BR stuff, I just send the die to Jim Carstensen with a some fired brass and never look back. I have a set of the Redding shellholders that are in .001" graduations, but I found the amount of lube applied makes too much difference. I never got consistant results. I should probably go to a spray lube, but when the stars align, and the brass has polished a long time in my tumbler, I've found I can use Jim's dies without lube to give me a thou or two, as shown on a Mo's Headspace gauge.

 

[bigedp51]

This post is a common occurrence at SavageShooters.com, some of the people there use a new cartridge case as a GO headspace gauge when changing barrels. And then apply a piece of scotch tape to the base of the case as a NO-GO gauge.

Their next post is asking why their full length resized case won't fit in their chamber.

We live in a plus and minus world and the majority of people don't have simple gauges to correctly measure the plus and minus.



Anyone in the market for a Wilson paper weight and pen holder?

 

[jo191145]

Biged You could count me in as one of those Savage guys (no tape Thank You). I adjust my barrels for crush fit on virgin brass, if possible,
I like it that way, never shoot factory ammo so negative headspace is not a concern. Brass fits in tight, pops out easy after firing with minimal stretch. Of course as you point out it helps to realize exactly what you've just done when it comes to resizing

Note to Savage shooters. Clearance on the bolt head is your limiting factor when using negative headspace.

 

[p5200]

I'm using a Forster Co-Ax to reload with and was able to find a RCBS die set for my Tikka t3 Deluxe in 270 win. locally so I grabbed them but used a Forster die lock ring. So far using RCBS die setup adjustment directions I've had pretty good luck.

 

[BoydAllen]

Your say that you have been getting pretty good results. Have you measured how much you are setting back your case shoulders when you size them, or are you telling us that rounds chamber without difficulty? These are RCBS's instructions, that I copied from Step by Step Reloading, on their web site."Thread the sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the ram is at the top of the press stroke. Raise the press handle and turn the die down another one-eigth to one-quarter of a turn and set the large lock ring. If you're using a carbide sizer die, make slight contact with the bottom of the die and the shell holder." While these basic instructions will get you started, more advanced loaders will take a much more sophisticated approach, measuring fired and sized cases to determine proper die settings. You might want to note that RCBS makes micrometer type gauges to measure shoulder to head dimension to facilitate more precise setting of FL dies.

 

[fguffey]

Well you folks have forced me to go measure my shell holders and guess what they vary as much as .003.
Always wondered why my 6/250 had a stiff bolt close on occasion.
I like Boyd's method of taking down the holder.

Aloha, Les

While there is some variation in shell holders, it is the dies the vary the most. Buy 10 FL dies from ANY manufacture and the cases from them will all have different headspace measurements.

It just is what it is... you can't get 0.0005" precision for $29.95

This is a reloading forum stocked with Accurate shooters....and bench resters, lots of bench resters. After reading through this thread I wonder about the Accurate shooters and bench resters ability to determine the dies ability to restore a case to minimum length/full length size.



Again, the coveted head space gage, it is a standard, it is a transfer, and, it can be use to verify, time and time again, over and over the head space gage is recommended by members of this forum, as in “Get a head space gage!” and? that is it, just get a head space and spend the rest of your life talking about having a head space gage. A head space gage can be used to verify a die, simply remove the primer punch /neck sizer ball assemble then insert the do-gage into the die, THEN! install a shell holder on the gage and with a feeler gage measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die to determine the accuracy of the die, remember, the die is minimum length, the go-gage is go-gage length, for a 30/06 full length sizer die and a shell holder with a deck height of .125 the gap in the perfect world is .005”.

Then there is the shell holder, I ask “How difficult is it to measure the deck height of a shell holder”? My shell holders have a deck height of .125”, I am on no ones favorite list of customers, but RCBS offered to swap shell my holder for new ones, it was not out of sympathy I declined the generous offer, I have 4 different sets of RCBS shell holders, not all of them are alike, then there are the most accurate of shell holders, when it comes to versatility I am limited.

Point? There is no such thing as a die that can not size a case enough, there are bench resters and reloaders that do not know how to get all the use possible out of a press, die and shell holder. With a RCBS shell holder, I size cases for short chambers, meaning I can decrease the deck height of a shell holder by .012” below minimum length, that is .017” shorter than a go-gage length chamber, WHY? would I do that? Because I cut short chambers, it has never been necessary to grind the top of the shell holder, it has never been necessary to grind the bottom of a die, but, if I decided to grind one or the other I would know exactly, in thousands, how much to grind.

F. Guffey

 

[BoydAllen]

Really...the rest of us are just fools who don't understand how to use our equipment...yea, right.