huh?? Have to size more than once..

[BoydAllen]

Good point. Years back, with a RCBS FL die, that was doing a fair amount of work (in terms of case diameter reduction) the difference, at top of stroke between with case, and without (touching) was .006, as measured by a feeler gauge between the die and shell holder. Just remember a full turn of the die is worth .071, so all this quarter turn past touch stuff is excessive. Just pay attention to the appearance of a gap that tells you you have more adjustment to work with, than is apparent with an empty die.

 

[jlow]

That is right. Body die touching the shell holder is general good advice but the problem is it is adjusted when the press is not under tension like it is when you are sizing. This is why the Competition Die shell holder works better in this situation.

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that the only way to properly adjust a die is by measurement of fired and sized cases, and that not measuring can shorten case life considerably if it results in excessive bump. To do this properly requires a proper tool for the job. I use the tool that is now sold by Hornady. I got mine when they were made by Stoney Point. There are several others that work.

 

[jlow]

The Hornady tool is what I use too.

 

[bigedp51]

I saw a youtube video posted at another forum to get constant shoulder bump and less run out. You are to pause at the top of the ram stroke (cam over) and count to three. Then lower the ram rotate the case 180 and repeat the sizing. Basically you are telling the brass who’s the boss and to stay put, meaning minimal spring back.

 

[Joe Maisto]

Boyd;
Funny you should mention about keeping the press handle in the down position for a few seconds as you are in the process of "bumping". I have thought of that sometime ago and firmly believe in it too.

AH Smith;
How right you are. I never knew enough back then to have your own reamer and using the same "smith" to use it for doing your chambers. It's probably the most important feature I can think of. I have been fighting this business for more years than I care to mention, because I did not do that. So here I am with three full length sizing dies and a body die.

Take notice people. Most important piece of advice. Also, when you get your barrel chambered and fire a few rounds, consider sending several fired cases to Lynwood Harrel, or Niel Jones to have a CORRECT sized FL die built.

 

[bow shot]

Yes folks, "the data" was all for doing the work caming over. Not crazy crush, but more than just an easy toggle.

I think you all are correct, in my experience (with this set of brass…) the amount of cam-over (which indicates at the very least, positive die/shell-holder contact, "no" gap between the die and the shell holder) made a difference, and dwell time did too.

I'm thinking I got "lucky" with the hornady die only because the OD is a tad bigger(indicated by easier stroke) and that allows some of the shoulder-area metal to suck backward.

And the brass "character case-to-case is a thing to contend (or deal) with..

I'm using the Hornady (Stoney point) comparator and a Mit 0.0005" caliper. Gotta grab the 0.0001" from work!

Would anyone else, like expiper proffer that the headspace on the rifle may be a tad too much?

 

[expiper]

bow shooter,,,,,I hope that helps,,,no matter what you do to your dies/shell holdr/dwell time/etc,,,,If the chamber is toooo shallow (tite--min spec--etc) you dies cant squeeze the ctg case enuff to go back into a chamber that is littler than the die!!!!...you see it a lot on savages that are torqued on the headspace guage too much ,,,that makes the bbl on too far and the chamber tooo tite,,,I have seen people spend $$$$$ on custom dies and waste prescious time ,,when it is the classic problem of reamer/chamber/brass/dies that are NOT in concert,,,,Roger
PS,,try your headspace guage and see how tite it is ,,,,OBTW,,,you can use a headspace guage to set the dies also,,just remove the de-caping assy,,,,

 

[BoydAllen]

Your issues are more likely with minimum headspace than if you had a bit more. Think about it a bit.

 

[bigedp51]

At SavageShooter.com you see this all the time when proper head space gauges are not used when installing a new barrel. Some barrels are even setup using a cartridge case as a GO headspace gauge and adding scotch tape to it for the NO-GO gauge. Their very first post after installing a new barrel is asking why a resized case will not fit in their chamber.

1. Does this problem exist with more than one die

2. Will your bolt close on a GO gauge.

3. If it does you have two choices, readjust your headspace or lap your shell holder.

Signed
Someone who played with his bolt head until he nearly went blind.

 

[bow shot]

'factory rifle… so no tinkering has been done to the headspace (or so it should be…).

Ok… I gotta think on the "too little" headspace thing. I thought there was perhaps too much, and the cases had grown so much (ie., some moved from 1.800 new, to 1.8065 after 3x firing) that, this indicated excess headspace, and might be what made it difficult to just knock it back (consistently). 'Beside the springiness variation, or other variables.

Ruminating...

I should add: the longest extracted hard. all the rest extracted fine. The longest ones also chambered just as easily (closing the bolt) as the shorter cases.

 

[BoydAllen]

Headspace is measured with gauges. If you take the time to measure new cases or factory loads, and compare them with fired cases, especially those from hot loads, you will find that it is not at all unusual for the new brass to be .006 shorter than the fired. (If you really want an eye opener, look at belted cases this way.)

 

[bow shot]

Yes, I'm using the Hornady tool

Ah.. I think I got it… when you guys say too little headspace do you mean the case is overly long i.e., after firing, has consumed all the headspace in the chamber, and now there is not enough (i.e.., tool little)? Have I got that right?

I am now considering buying the tools (action wrench, nut wrench) and going slight crush-fit on new (i.e. w/i 3 dB) brass.

 

[LHSmith]

@ zero H/S ( brass no longer will spring-back) will still work fine (providing chamber and case are totally clean). The case can't grow in the base to shoulder datum dimension once it is removed from the chamber.
All S/H's are not created equal, they do not measure exactly .125" in height.....I dedicate one S/H to each die. If you have multiple brands, chances are they are different. If you start modifying dies and S/H's you had better mark them as such.

 

[LHSmith]

Also, when doing measuring, make sure primers are out.
I check my die adjustment by removing the FP assembly, and size the case by the bolt resistance just before closing, which the feel varies between comp. and non comp. rifles. Checking dim's with calipers and H/S tools can lead to errors.

 

[bow shot]

'Took the day off to play today...

LHSmith, understood. I've been measuring the SH's:
RCBS #2: 0.1220
Lee #3: 0.1235
Redding comp +2: 0.1270
Redding comp +4: 0.1285
Redding comp +6: 0.1300
Redding comp +8: 0.1325
Redding comp +10: 0.1345

Some of the .0005" may be the limitation of my caliper (0.0005 mitutoyo) as BoydAllen would note.

 

[BoydAllen]

I never recommend working by feel. Years back, when I told a friend that he should measure, he doubted that it was needed, having done it by feel for years. Of course most of his shooting had been with loads that were not real hot, and he had neck sized with a Lee Collet die. Anyway, I challenged him to try something. I had him adjust a FL die more than once by feel, undoing the adjustment after each, and bring the cases to me to be measured with my Stoney Point tool. After seeing how much they varied, he built a tool of his own, that was more like the ones that Lynwood Harrell furnishes with his dies. I don't have any problem measuring at all. The main reason that I discourage adjusting FL dies by feel, is that the person giving the advice usually has no way to know if the die fits the chamber, and if the die is too big in the back for a particular chamber, then by the time that the feel is what a fellow is looking for, the shoulder will have been bumped too far. In that case, a different die is needed. If the feel is not right with a properly measured shoulder bump, then a new die is probably needed for that chamber. Another thing, if you run tight cases, you had better keep your bolt lugs lubed, or they may become galled.

 

[bow shot]

Boyd' , you know, after i posted that, I harkened to a thread quite a while back (perhaps a year) where we tossed this subject over and back a bit. I'm absolutely with you. "Feel" is a poor indicator, unless you are so seasoned and the sense is applied constantly, and is verified with instruments regularly (like a musician's ear.. I happen to be one… musician, not an ear).

 

[LHSmith]

What Boyd said is true. The first thing I do with a new bbl. or rifle is measure and record the H/S, load up a dummy round that just touches and keep that to keep track of throat wear. However, once I determine the sizing die will work with the chamber, I will resort to the feel method. Those cases that are tight will get another trip through the die after removing a shim(s). If some are too loose, I'll use them for foulers or FF. I just have more confidence in my chamber giving me feedback vs. the caliper and H/S tool agreeing with a targeted number.....a result of getting different readings too many times.

 

[M14AMU]

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html