dies that dont size enough

[fguffey]

There is only one .000” as in zero, as in measured from, the chamber, the die and the case is measured from zero, for years datum to the shooting world was a line on a drawing with an arrow pointing to ‘the line’ declaring the line ‘the datum line’, anyone with the slightest fundamental understanding of mechanical drawings would never confuse the line with anything but a round circle/hole, except those that post the drawings, they always omit the diameter of the hole.

F. Guffey

Again, I am the fan of transfers, standards and verifying, Boyd Allen, what and or how do you verify a measurement, the go-gage is a standard, it is a standard for the chamber, it is a standard for determining the accuracy of a die, it is a standard for checking the accuracy of a L.E. Wilson case gage, after all, the Wilson case gage is a datum based gage.

 

[fguffey]

The reason I do not like to quote is the quote changes, No, I am not confused about the use of a standard like the head space gage, if you thought I said you do not know how to “Really...the rest of us are just fools who don't understand how to use our equipment...yea, right” I did not call you a fool, I did suggest there are shooters and bench resters who don't understand how to use their equipment.

To be fair and objective, read through this thread again, the shell holder has a deck height, the die has an ability to return a case to minimum length, I first thought reloading had come a long way from demanding the brand of the shell holder must match the brand of the die because there is ‘soooooo much difference and variation between between manufacturers, If you can not measure for variation, that is OK, again, if you have the ability to measure variation and understand the concept of .000 (zero) explain to me how you make those measurements, I make tools, I thought everyone was capable of doing the same, I have been wrong before, I do not set limits.

F. Guffey

 

[BoydAllen]

Mr. Guffey,
Since I do not chamber my barrels, or make my dies, I have learned to work with them as they come. In order to do this, one thing that I choose to do is to control how far back cases shoulders are pushed back when FL sized. In order to do this, I need a case that feels tight when I close the bolt, and a way to measure it, and the cases that I have sized. I knock the primer out of the tight case, measure it, and then very gradually adjust the die till sized cases shoulders have been pushed back by the amount that I want, depending on the application, somewhere between .001 and .002. The tool that I use to do my measuring, unlike A Wilson case gauge, will work for a wide variety of calibers, and is easy to use. It was originally made and sold by Stoney Point, and is now available from Hornady. In using the tool, absolute numbers are of no importance, only the difference between the tight case and a sized case. When I have sized cases for factory rifles, I have never had to modify a die or shell holder in order to push back case shoulders when sizing, but for my bench rifles, that are headspaced more closely, I have had to reduce the height of a couple of shell holders. One thing that contributes to this problem is the number of times that cases are fired in benchrest applications. The more times that a case is fired and FL sized, even with a closely set custom die, the more work hardened it becomes, requiring that the die be adjusted to maintain the desired amount of shoulder bump. Years back, when I first became aware that I needed to have better tools to set my dies, I realized that it would be cheaper to buy the Stoney Point tool than to by the required number of Wilson case gauges, and after I bought it I was pleased with how easy it is to use.

 

[chevytruck_83]

I was under the impression that the dies were able to size well below minimum eliminating problems of this sort. thats why i started this post. yes I have the hornady tools to measure case length, coal etc. and use them while sizing.

 

[BoydAllen]

That depends on how the rifle was chambered. For all of the factory rifles that I have tried, I COULD adjust dies to push back case shoulders too far. Custom chambers for benchrest shooting can be different in that respect.

 

[chevytruck_83]

well the combo works fine for my 700 but not my friends savage. since its a savage I thought maybe headspace was wrong. I got a go gauge and did the Scotch tape trick and the headspace is good. bolt closes about half way before stopping. it chambers and shoots federal gold match just fine.

 

[fguffey]

Boyd Allen, again, thank you for your professionalism.

F. Guffey

 

[CatShooter]

I was under the impression that the dies were able to size well below minimum eliminating problems of this sort. thats why i started this post. yes I have the hornady tools to measure case length, coal etc. and use them while sizing.

Actually, most standard sizing dies can't even reach minimum size, and you probably don't want that, anyway.

Since we are currently benefiting from a monologue about how dumb all of us are, I won't go any further with this.

But do listen to Boyd, he may be technically challenged (like the rest of us), but at least he has been around for 847 years, so he get's it right some of the time

 

[jo191145]

Well fguffy got this dummy wondering sumptin,,,,

Will all go gauges fit inside all FL dies without causing a major "boy do I feel stupid for having done that" move?
Like Boyd I've never felt the need to shove a close fitting piece of steel into another close fitting piece of steel that aren't manufactured to airplane specs.

Just wonderin.

 

[chevytruck_83]

I'm not doubting Boyd for a second. he's helped me many many a time. he along with several others on her. when they talk, I listen. I didn't mean to say I would want to size less then minimum but y not make them so they will definitely size enough. I mean what if a first time reloader has this issue. they would really be stumped.

 

[Barlow]

I take my dies to a machine shop and have them take .010 to .020 off of the bottom. Usually .010.This same issue was beat to death about a month ago. I have shortened dies and shellholders to get the job done. I even contacted Forster about this issue and they said it was A O.K. to do either, in order to ghet the right fit. Barlow

 

[fguffey]

Well fguffy got this dummy wondering sumptin,,,,

Will all go gauges fit inside all FL dies without causing a major "boy do I feel stupid for having done that" move?
Like Boyd I've never felt the need to shove a close fitting piece of steel into another close fitting piece of steel that aren't manufactured to airplane specs.

Just wonderin.The go-gage will drop into the die, the go-gage will drop into the Wilson case gage, when placed into a chamber the go-gage touches the shoulder of the chamber and or the bolt face.

Then there is that part about using a shell holder, most go-gages will not fit a shell holder, not a problem, the shell holder deck height is .125”, if the gage does not fit the shell holder use a larger shell holder, instead of using a #3 shell holder for 30/06, use a #4 shell holder.

F. Guffey

 

[BoydAllen]

So, let's say I have some fired cases, a FL die, a shell holder a press, and a Hornady "headspace gauge", and I am about to set the die. Just why would I find a chambering headspace gauge useful? Remember, the rifle is already chambered, and I am not in a position to change how that was done. All that I think of in the way of additional equipment ,that I might find useful, is a set of slim feeler gauges that would fit between the case head and the shell holder, and that only if I could not bump the case's shoulder with the other equipment. With those feeler gauges, I could progressively raise the case above where the shell holder can insert it in the die, and if one of the feeler gauges raises the case enough to give the bump that I want (assuming that the front of the rim does not run into the top of its slot in the shell holder before this happens) I will know how much to shorten the shell holder or die (plus a few thousandths to allow for future work hardening). I still have not found a job for the chambering headspace gauge in this situation. Perhaps I could cut it in half lengthwise and make a tie clip out of it? (all of this measuring steel with steel stuff ignores one very important fact. Brass cases are not dead soft and for that reason they have spring back. A die setting that would produce a .001 bump on a well used, very work hardened case, could give .0035 on a twice fired case. I have seen it happen. Cases do not come out of dies the same size as the inside of the die, so brass must actually be sized to see exactly how much bump a given die setting will produce.

 

[jelrod1]

Can a chamber headspace gage be used to set a cartridge measuring headspace gage? If so that is the only use I could possibly see for one on the reloading bench unless I'm missing something completely. Then again, why when you have a fired case? I set my shoulders back .001 or so and get that using the Redding competition shell holders that are stepped in size instead of moving the die and measure it with an Innovative Technologies gage instead of the Hornady one. Pretty much the same as Boyd is describing.

 

[fguffey]

“So, let's say I have some fired cases, a FL die, a shell holder a press, and a Hornady "headspace gauge", and I am about to set the die”

If I may be allowed a liberty, and say I am allowed to disagree on a few points? I would say Hornady makes a comparator they mislabeled as a head space gage, I would also suggest firing the cases was not necessary, and I would suggest the trip to the range would be a good thing the trip was not necessary when determining the length of the chamber because you have a press, die and shell holder, to deterring die adjustment (to, below or off the shell holder you could use cases that were to long to chamber.

Case forming and determining the length of the chamber, I have a 308 W forming die, I form 308 W cases from 30/06 cases, I can not miss when getting an absolute fit between the formed case and the chamber. The 308 W is shorter than the 30/06 from the shoulder to the head of the case by .389”. And, no, I am not obligated to load and fire the cases, again, I want to know the length of the chamber before I fire, not after, then there is verifying, with the/a comparator I could measure the case after firing.




“dies that don't size enough”

I am not an assumer, I do not assume the press, die and shell holder sized the case when the ram is/was raised. Again, reviewing this thread, there is sized, not sized enough, too much, and anyone's guess. Reloading does not have to be that way, without all the bench top tools/equipment a reloader can determine if the case was sized to minimum length/full length sized. Back to ‘not assuming’, before lowering the ram a reloader can check to see if the die made it to the shell holder, if not there will be a gap between the die and shell holder, the gap represents the amount of case that did not get sized, the gap also represents the amount of press flex created by the case’s ability to resist sizing, in the perfect world new-unfired cases would be used, after that once fired cases would be used. At some point the resistance of the case being sized must be considered.

Instructions: Starts with: (something like) Screw the die in until it contacts the shell holder ‘with the ram up’, then lower the ram and give the die an additional 1/4 turn. The instructions do not continue with additional instructions ‘like’ if the first attempt at sizing the case is unsuccessful turn the die down an additional 1/4 turn, again, the additional turn of the die into the shell holder is a means of overcoming the cases ability to resist sizing, and at the same time increasing the flex of the press.

Like others, I have presses, some were guaranteed not to flex, the guarantee says nothing about braking the handle in the effort. Sinclair/Hornady head space gage? OR, Sinclair/Hornady comparator, The Horandy/Sinclair or any other tool that measures case length is not a head space gage. When using a comparator the reloader is comparing a before and after measurement on the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case, the difference between the two measurements indicates the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. The comparator measure case length from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case, SAAMI does not list head space on the case, SAAMI list case length, normally with a –.000” number, SAAMI list head space on the chamber (almost?) always with a minimum and maximum in .000”.

As you said, you fire a case, then measure, there are a few that measure first and then fire, it is possible to form cases before firing, by knowing the length of the chamber first the reloader can adjust the die to size cases to fit the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, convincing someone that is possible can be difficult. Not a route I recommend because it can be expensive, I have at least 15 forming dies, not necessary for most sizing jobs. When determining the length of the chamber first I use cases that will not chamber as in being too long and or a case that requires forming. The favorite case is the 280 Remington, it is .051” longer than the 30/06 family of chambers from the shoulder to the head of the case, my opinion, it is a can not miss option. Then there are cases fired in trash ole chambers, I have purchased thousands of them at gun ranges for $8.00 for 110. I simply measure the length of the cases from the shoulder to the head of the case, many times I have been able to match them in groups of 20, again, the long cases are tools, I am under no obligation to size the cases and fire them, I want to know the length of the chamber, I find sizing/forming is easier than making a trip to the range to fire to form then measure.

Then there is case forming, neck the case up to .338” or .350” then start necking the case down, eventually a new shoulder will be established, all a reloader has to do is be able to keep up with the distance from the new shoulder to the head of the case. Moving the shoulder or bumping, I can not bump, with the extremes of sizing and or forming the shoulder is erased, the shoulder does not move it stays put, the shoulder that is formed is a new shoulder, no one scribes the location/position of the case body/shoulder junction, I have, the scribed line does not move.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Can a chamber headspace gage be used to set a cartridge measuring headspace gage?

“Can a chamber headspace gage be used to set a cartridge measuring headspace gage?”

Jelrod1, I will assume you are referring to the digital head space gage that is mislabeled as a head space gage, Larry makes a comparator, measure before and again after. Back to the concept of .000” (zero), The head space gage can be used to adjust the comparator to, not a problem for me but the Willis gage does not use datums as in .375”, .400” and .420: he uses a three legged devise he invented, unknown to anyone the 3 legged devise has been with us from the beginning, a three legged table and or chair does not require leveling like a 4 legged chair and or table when a leg (one) does not reach the floor.

A standard, like the head space gage can be used to adjust a comparator to .000 (zero), then when measuring case length the readings will be +/- to either side of zero. Remember, the Sinclair/Hornady uses a dial caliber, keeping up with linier measurements depends on the users. The digital case comparator is a dial indicating, unless he has added a revolution counter it is simpler to .000” the gage and take + and or – readings.

and I said I can modify a go-gage to a go-to infinity gage, instead of creating cursory among precision shooters, reloaders and bench resters, I alienated them. and I wonder, why did they take the time to learn to read?

F. Guffey

 

[CatShooter]

The main flaw in your presentation is that you think that you are right and everyone that doesn't see it your way is wrong.

Unfortunately, you are neither right or wrong... you have presented a small snapshot of information that might apply to the way "you do it"... and you have left a tremendous amount of facts and approaches out of the monologue.

 

[jelrod1]

the Willis gage does not use datums as in .375”, .400” and .420: he uses a three legged devise he invented, unknown to anyone the 3 legged devise has been with us from the beginning, a three legged table and or chair does not require leveling like a 4 legged chair and or table when a leg (one) does not reach the floor.


F. Guffey

Thanks for the response. I actually find this gage works wonderful for my purposes. I have it set up for .308 only and don't move it. I set the diameter correctly with a Deltronics gage pin and made sure the "fingers" were level with a separate height gage and indicator. I also replaced the digital indicator supplied with a good Brown & Sharpe I had at the shop because I like it better and trust it. You can also use certain sized bushings in conjunction with a comparator/indicator. I see many ways to skin the cat accurately without saying there is only "one" true way.

Another cartridge gets another gage. It's about convienence and accuracy to me. I am not a fan of trying to measure to the .001 with a caliper. Around here parts turn to scrap real quick if you try.

ETA: I, like others have stated see that the desired amount of setback and what's required to get it changes as the brass structure does. I want a way to measure it.

 

[fguffey]

“Around here parts turn to scrap real quick if you try” could be a colloquial term, around here it is called ‘rendered scrap’.

In my travels I have been fortunate, about the time Bridgeport was dismantled and hauled to the scrap yard a few pieces did not make it, I acquired a Pratt and Whitney gage, it measured down to .000005”, useless to me, I removed the electronics and did as you except for the Brown and Sharp indicator. The advantage was the height, it goes up to 11 inches.

Then there were inside micrometers, I have done nothing with them but they are as small as a head space gage.

F. Guffey

 

[jelrod1]

I have 20 pcs of .308 Lapua brass that I'm keeping tabs on throughout their lifespan with my coordinate measuring machine. Definitely overkill for reloading purposes but I'm just doing it as an excersise to maybe learn something. The program measures inside and outside of the cases in one setup and I'm watching how and where specifically wall thickness changes. Don't really know what I hope to gain from it but its interesting to me nonetheless.