dies that dont size enough

[chevytruck_83]

I've recently helped a friend troubleshoot why his savage 10 BA 308 doesn't chamber rounds properly. after taking lots of measurements of fired cases and factory loads that do chamber I realized that the case at the shoulder wasn't being sized properly. so I assumed it was the way he had his dies set and told him he needs to be more careful etc. turns out it was his rcbs full length sizing die. it doesn't have the ability to bump the shoulder or even the outer diameter of the case enough. I then found an article that explains the same problem. my question is why aren't these dies considered defective and shouldn't rcbs replace them? I haven't checked the numbers against sammi specs yet but its a factory savage rifle that is head spaced properly.

 

[DRNewcomb]

Once upon a time, I had an '03A3 that would chamber factory rounds but not my relaods, which worked in every other .30-'06 I owned. I ended up using an Arkansas stone to lap a thousandth, or so, off the face of my shell holder and everything was hunky dorey.

 

[jonbearman]

Shell plates can vary quite a bit as there are tolerances used in making them and you probably have one at the top of the tolerance.I personally find a flat surface and lap the top of the shellholder and keep mic-ing the holder till you remove a thou or two or measure any doubles that you have and see which one might work and keep it with that set of dies.

 

[chevytruck_83]

I guess that would be the easy logical solution. thanks guys.

 

[CatShooter]

I've recently helped a friend troubleshoot why his savage 10 BA 308 doesn't chamber rounds properly. after taking lots of measurements of fired cases and factory loads that do chamber I realized that the case at the shoulder wasn't being sized properly. so I assumed it was the way he had his dies set and told him he needs to be more careful etc. turns out it was his rcbs full length sizing die. it doesn't have the ability to bump the shoulder or even the outer diameter of the case enough. I then found an article that explains the same problem. my question is why aren't these dies considered defective and shouldn't rcbs replace them? I haven't checked the numbers against sammi specs yet but its a factory savage rifle that is head spaced properly.

They are not defective, but RCBS WILL replace them. SAAMI specs will not help you - there is a large variation allowed with chamber sizes - your friend has a minimum chamber and got a max set of dies.

Send the die and 3 fired case to RCBS, and they will send a die that will work fine.

 

[M-61]

The plus side of this is that they are RCBS dies. Should you suspect a die problem no one has better customer service. That being said the shell holder height does greatly differ. My solution was to color code my holders to the die. Somehow over the years I've accumulated a number of the same shell holders from different manufacturers. I color coded the one that is set up far a particular die and that's it. And I would repeat, a call to RCBS with a suspected problem with their product will produce outstanding results.

 

[bigedp51]

I have four sets of .223 dies of different types, my Lee die will push the shoulder back .005 further than the RCBS die will with the same shell holder.

Catshooter hit the nail on the head in his posting above, if you do not wish to send the die back to RCBS then do the following.

Get a piece of thick glass cut at your local hardware store to the same size as a sheet of wet and dry sand paper. Wet the glass and apply a sheet of 600 grit or finer sand paper, the water will cause the paper to adhere to the surface of the glass.

Wet or oil the surface of the sand paper and lap the shell holder in a figure eight pattern while constantly shifting your grip on the shell holder. Shifting your grip will prevent exerting too much pressure on one side of the shell holder and help keep the top surface flat. When using oil on the sand paper the viscosity of the oil will control how far the piece your lapping "floats" above the sand paper and thus the degree of what is removed from the surface of the object. Meaning start with light 3 in 1 oil and finish with 30 weight oil for the final finish.

This same basic procedure above minus lapping blocks that cost thousands of dollars is how aircraft hydraulic pump components are overhauled to a micron finish. (trust me, I did a few thousand pumps)

 

[CatShooter]

Just don't use "sand paper"... use Wet-n-Dry Silicone Carbide paper - #600 or finer grit.

 

[chevytruck_83]

ill see what he wants to do. he'll probably just send it in to them. I didn't realize they would do that. I have delt with them before with something else and there service was excellent.

 

[bigedp51]

Just don't use "sand paper"... use Wet-n-Dry Silicone Carbide paper - #600 or finer grit.

I used simple terms in case white collar non mechanical types that had Engineering degrees would understand it. : These types might think Wet-n-Dry Silicone Carbide paper are used as diaper wipes.

"Sandpaper"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandpaper

Get a piece of thick glass cut at your local hardware store to the same size as a sheet of wet and dry sand paper. Wet the glass and apply a sheet of 600 grit or finer sand paper, the water will cause the paper to adhere to the surface of the glass.

 

[BoydAllen]

Sometimes fellows turn a die down till it touched the shell holder, with no case in place, being sized, and think that that is as far as they can go, but if they lube and insert an unsized case, and run the ram back up to top, a gap appears that will allow additional adjustment. In the one case where I first observed this, sizing .220 Swift cases with an RCBS FL die, the gap was .006, and taking advantage of the additional room, allowed me to properly adjust the die. Another thing, cases do not reach the full shoulder to head length on one firing, and this is the dimension that your friend should be bumping in reference to. Ask him to back out the die so that it barely sizes the end of the neck enough to keep a bullet in place, and shoot as warm a load as is safe in his rifle, a couple of times with one case, and measure that. Between these two things he may be able to set his die for the proper amount of bump from a tight case. The same thing applies to the shoulder diameter. On first firing, with a not too hot load, the diameter may not reach its maximum. Measure the previously mentioned test case for this dimension as well.

 

[4xforfun]

I take my dies to a machine shop and have them take .010 to .020 off of the bottom. Usually .010.

 

[bigedp51]

I take my dies to a machine shop and have them take .010 to .020 off of the bottom. Usually .010.

On the flip side of this there are those that say the die should make hard contact with the shell holder. And this why Redding sells "Competition Shell Holders", it is said when setting up your dies a lubed case should be in the shell holder to help center the die in the course threads of the press when the ram is fully extended. When the die makes hard contact with the shell holder the case is centered and held 90 degrees to the axis of the bore, and "then" the die lock ring is tightened down.

 

[STS]

I surface grind my shell-holders and dedicate them to the die sets.
I find there can be a lot of variance in shell holders, to both height and flatness.

Donovan

Exactly what I do also.

 

[M-61]

What works well for a flat surface with many purposes is a small (6x6) piece of PLATE glass. A glass shop should have a small piece roughly that size lying around. It gives you a really flat surface, to polish shell holders as in this case, and additionally a flat area on which to make a quick check if anything is bent or out of round. 1/2 inch thick works great.

 

[chevytruck_83]

Boyd, I did that after noticing the problem and it did exactly what the article on this site said. as i tightned it, it actually stretched the case.

 

[bigedp51]

What works well for a flat surface with many purposes is a small (6x6) piece of PLATE glass. A glass shop should have a small piece roughly that size lying around. It gives you a really flat surface, to polish shell holders as in this case, and additionally a flat area on which to make a quick check if anything is bent or out of round. 1/2 inch thick works great.

Get a piece of thick glass cut at your local hardware store to the same size as a sheet of wet and dry sand paper. Wet the glass and apply a sheet of 600 grit or finer sand paper, the water will cause the paper to adhere to the surface of the glass.

First we have a problem with wet and dry "sand paper" and now we have a glass problem that's "NOT" the same size as the sand paper. Do you people actually read other peoples postings? Or do you like lapping on small restrictive surfaces?

quis separabit

 

[BoydAllen]

I would guess that most of us do not require an entire sheet to work on a small piece. BTW, shell holders are not hardened, dies are, and working down a shell holder is really no big deal. Just check thickness in different places as you go, and try to keep it even.

 

[M-61]

What works well for a flat surface with many purposes is a small (6x6) piece of PLATE glass. A glass shop should have a small piece roughly that size lying around. It gives you a really flat surface, to polish shell holders as in this case, and additionally a flat area on which to make a quick check if anything is bent or out of round. 1/2 inch thick works great.

Get a piece of thick glass cut at your local hardware store to the same size as a sheet of wet and dry sand paper. Wet the glass and apply a sheet of 600 grit or finer sand paper, the water will cause the paper to adhere to the surface of the glass.

First we have a problem with wet and dry "sand paper" and now we have a glass problem that's "NOT" the same size as the sand paper. Do you people actually read other peoples postings? Or do you like lapping on small restrictive surfaces?

\

Actually I read the postings and I answer them when I see I may be productive in my answer or at least pass on something that has worked for me. I have a problem with sarcastic answers because they may stop folks from asking a question.....and the only stupid question is the 'unasked' one.

 

[bigedp51]

Actually I read the postings and I answer them when I see I may be productive in my answer or at least pass on something that has worked for me. I have a problem with sarcastic answers because they may stop folks from asking a question.....and the only stupid question is the 'unasked' one.

Having spent thousands of hours overhauling aircraft components I can't imagine lapping a shell holder on a 6x6 piece of glass and being "productive".

If you consider this as being sarcastic when you do not have my 38 years of experience in lapping components to a micron finish.

What I read was someone turning the generic words "wet and dry sand paper" into Silicone Carbide paper, and "thick glass" into plate glass. And my point being both of you just repeated what I had just said earlier. The majority of wet and dry sand paper is Silicone Carbide and thick glass will be "PLATE" glass. KISS=Keep it simple stupid, so everyone understands.

"Flat glass"

"Flat glass, sheet glass, glass pane, or plate glass is a type of glass, initially produced in plane form, commonly used for windows, glass doors, transparent walls, and windshields."