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Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?

I don't want to be condescending, but....based on the fact you never use flags and the above comment -it appears you do not have a clue as to why it is essential to run rounds down range in order to net the absolute maximum accuracy. True, you might be able to "pick" your way to small groups....but that method has it's pitfalls if you don't know how to compensate for them. This applies to all shooting, competitive or not.

IMHO custom actions are a shortcut to the learning curve of shooting accurately....the chances are orders of magnitude greater that coupled with a decent barrel you will have a gun that you can trust. Trust is huge.... the reason for errant shots will be narrowed down to other factors....not the gun. This is the quickest way to learning to read the wind. Attempting to make wind calls with a gun that throws shots will waste time and money and EXTREMELY frustrating.

My understanding is that "running" rounds down range is for the purposes of capitalizing on a wind condition that is known and its effect on bullet trajectory. The idea being to get as many rounds downrange during that condition, before the condition changes, and is in fact exactly what I did during my first 1000 yard match (1st match ever). I am confident this is why I was not last (NBRSA match), a real shock.

I have not used wind flags, but have already indicated I intend to purchase the Graham flags. I will need these to best develop loads.

I fully understand how the use of a custom action can build trust, as explained by others earlier in this thread. But for me, as evidenced by the title of this thread, I want to understand just WHAT and HOW a custom action contributes to accuracy thereby removing itself from the accuracy equation. Some here have provided good answers and resources (the Vaughn book). But if there are no good answers, then there should be no difference in trust vs a factory action. I already understand that if you run the bolt, a custom offers unrivaled operational speed.

That said, my intent is not to shoot the absolute smallest group by using wind flags, "running" the bolt, etc. As indicated earlier, I want to achieve maximum accuracy for the equipment I choose to use in the conditions presented to me. My chosen equipment will not result in absolute maximum accuracy, and that is OK. That equipment would be a rifle on a bipod and light rear bag, and fired when wind conditions as I observe them (blowing vegetation, smoke, etc.) are something I feel I can manage. The circumstances that I might be presented with if I were a sniper or varmint hunter.

That said, I still need to do load development and need to remove me, the shooter, out of the equation as much as possible. For that, I will use the flags and use my coaxial front rest, heavy rear bag, etc. Without a dead-nuts BR rifle, it will be harder to separate gun performance anomalies from the shooter, but I don't want to shoot a BR rifle in BR rifle setups.

In the end, I want to be one of the better shooters that can fire good groups without special aids or the use of single purpose rifles. I got great satisfaction out of shooting 5 shot 2.75" groups at 300 yards out of my AR-15 (built for accuracy to the extent one can be), on a bipod, with a quartering stiff headwind. Hardly BR performance, but for an AR, on a bipod, in that wind, I felt pretty good about it.

Phil
 
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This is the OP's goal:

"Just building a rifle that I hope can shoot more often than not, .25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards ... "

That's dedicated BR rifle territory, hence the direction that the sensible advice has gone.

I also said I "hope" can shoot that small. I know a good BR rifle can.

Getting the best accuracy out my chosen equipment under the conditions and environment I want to use is a higher priority than getting the smallest groups. If I cannot achieve the 0.25" more often than not, then that goal is too lofty, as evidenced by own results, then I will have to set the bar lower.

Phil
 
I
I also said I "hope" can shoot that small. I know a good BR rifle can.

Getting the best accuracy out my chosen equipment under the conditions and environment I want to use is a higher priority than getting the smallest groups. If I cannot achieve the 0.25" more often than not, then that goal is too lofty, as evidenced by own results, then I will have to set the bar lower.

Phil
If you get a gun that shoots 0.25 you will win many of shoots . Larry
 
BR matches have a bunch of guys that know how to squeeze all the accuracy out of those bang sticks.. A good many will gladly help someone through the learning curve.. I can't stress the time you would save by just following the advice of some seasoned BR shooters.. BR is in my opinion is the top of the food chain, sure you can get a Pinto to go fast..

Ray
 
I also said I "hope" can shoot that small. I know a good BR rifle can.

Getting the best accuracy out my chosen equipment under the conditions and environment I want to use is a higher priority than getting the smallest groups. If I cannot achieve the 0.25" more often than not, then that goal is too lofty, as evidenced by own results, then I will have to set the bar lower.

Phil

After reading all of your responses to good advice I think you will be more than happy with your Salvage and Howa based rifles! After all, you were happy with a Mitsubishi Lancer at some point.
 
While I congradulate your win, F Class and precision shooting don't belong in the same sentence.
Rick

I think you just won the Internet for dumbest statement uttered... :rolleyes: But you're right, there's probably nothing "precision" about 17 shots in 5 inches or less at 1000 yards, centered in the X-ring. Oh wait - that's both precision AND accuracy. Of course, we don't get to stop at 10 shots, reeled off in belt-fed like fashion though. No offense intended, it just is what it is.
 
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I think you just won the Internet for dumbest statement uttered... :rolleyes: But you're right, there's probably nothing "precision" about 17 shots in 5 inches or less at 1000 yards, centered in the X-ring. Oh wait - that's both precision AND accuracy. Of course, we don't get to stop at 10 shots, reeled off in belt-fed like fashion though. No offense intended, it just is what it is.

10 shots blind, no spotters on the targets.. Smaller X ring


Ray
 
I think you just won the Internet for dumbest statement uttered... :rolleyes: But you're right, there's probably nothing "precision" about 17 shots in 5 inches or less at 1000 yards, centered in the X-ring. Oh wait - that's both precision AND accuracy. Of course, we don't get to stop at 10 shots, reeled off in belt-fed like fashion though. No offense intended, it just is what it is.

Jay, do you use a Savage

Ray
 
Getting the best accuracy out my chosen equipment under the conditions and environment I want to use is a higher priority than getting the smallest groups. If I cannot achieve the 0.25" more often than not, then that goal is too lofty, as evidenced by own results, then I will have to set the bar lower.

Phil
On the first statement, it comes across as oxymoronic, unless you are placing your goals on shooting for score.
One always has the option of lowering expectations of himself and his equipment, the other choice is to learn how to improve....and for that it takes equipment that is capable of repeated results.
Real world experience TRUMPS theory EVERYTIME. Good luck on your search to your original question finding an answer that you like.
 
I think you just won the Internet for dumbest statement uttered... :rolleyes: But you're right, there's probably nothing "precision" about 17 shots in 5 inches or less at 1000 yards, centered in the X-ring. Oh wait - that's both precision AND accuracy. Of course, we don't get to stop at 10 shots, reeled off in belt-fed like fashion though. No offense intended, it just is what it is.

No offense taken. The wind blows them in just like it blows them out. I'll stick by my statement, perceived as dumb or not. Fortunately for F Class, luck counts. I sure wouldn't win any matches if the best I could do was 1/2 MOA. Of course, I'm sure you do that every match.......

Rick
 
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In the post http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/the-savage-barrel-system-costs.3907867/page-2, I wrote the following.

"...Please tell me, just what is it about a custom action that allows it to deliver superior accuracy vs a custom? What design attributes does the custom offer over a Savage that will allow the custom to print tighter groups? I am NOT talking about ease of operation. I concede the trigger is a plus for the custom. I am talking about both actions, cocked, loaded, locked down, same barrel (switched if possible), and fired. Is there something in the custom action that will steer that bullet to the target more accurately than a Savage? I really want to know...".

I did not get an answer on this, but still would like to know, regardless if the action is a stock Remington, Savage, Howa, Ruger, etc. I expect that in the area of barrel tenon threads, barrel shoulder face, bolt face, bolt lugs, etc., that the custom is superior in dimensions and tolerance. But just HOW does that translate into superior accuracy when a round is chambered in the barrel and then fired?

Phil

This subject pops up all the time and the debate pretty much covers the same talking points. I am going to add my personal experience - take it for what it is.

I compete in F class and have used the Savage (Stevens 200 actually) from the start. Just added a wonderfully made, dead straight, solid lock up Pierce Titantium FTR single shot action a couple of years ago (John and crew are amazing to work with and their support both in knowledge and kit is top shelf).

I had been asking the same question and when I got the Pierce, it would certainly prove the point to me... what is my point of reference?

At 250yds, the rifles must print 1/4 to 1/3 min 5rds X 5 groups of the loads I would use to compete. At 1000yds, the rifles and loads have to give me the confidence to hit the X ring (5" circle) whether on the cold bore or after 30rds in searing summer heat (unlimited sighters and 20 for score.. I put a personal cap at 10 sighters). Rain or shine, shooting off a coal slag pile or mowed grass.

Was there a difference in mechanical accuracy with me driving the rifles? NOPE.... still use both rifles.

Is there an operational difference? YES

Positives - Pierce - stronger and more positive primary and secondary extraction. Yep, we run hot loads, add a bit of hot weather and sometimes, you need all the help you can get to extract that fired case. Under these circumstances, I have had problems with the Savage... the design of extraction camming isn't as good and will never be as good. With lower pressure loads, both operate wonderfully and with some TLC, the Savage runs as fast as the Pierce.

Trigger - I have used the rifle basix Savage2 since starting with the Savage actions. Great option and has proven robust, repeatable and reliable. What it can't do is consistently drop to the same light pull weights as the Jewell which I have on my Pierce. When I was starting, the heavier pull was actually a positive for me as "nerves" did cause a few unintentional trigger pulls. Today, I find the Jewell so much nicer to use and am very comfy with these super light pulls.

Care and Feeding - If I am going to a range that is really dirty or if heavy rain is expected, I would rather have my Savage vs the Pierce. The Savage is a hunting action after all, so lives quite happily when things get mucky - ie, there is plenty of places for dirt and water to get out. The Pierce has a wonderful vault tight lock up which can get dicey when alot of dirt/water is introduced. Lubing is a constant need with the Titanium to stop any chance of galling or stiffness in operation.

The savage can be run dry and like a rental....

For me, each has their place and I enjoy both very much. For the Savage, I will run moderate pressure loads giving me extra tuning room especially if lousy weather or large temp changes are expected. When soaking wet and chilled, I find the heavier trigger pull reassuring.

For the Pierce, if I want to throttle up to suit a "fast" barrel, I can do so with confidence that the fired case IS coming out of the action. The jewell is such a joy to use and really is my choice on those days when the relay becomes a "trigger pull".

I believe the floating bolt head of the Savage/Stevens resolves many of the harmonic ills found in solid bolt factory actions (which get fixed when these actions are blueprinted or what we pay for in a proper custom). When the bolt head is locked up, the rest of the bolt body is isolated from the kaboom and can flop around without any real affect on target. When the actions (yes, I have a few) were measured, the dimensions were dead straight from the receiver lug surface to receiver face including the threads. So at lock up, everything is as true as my Pierce.

On a typical factory solid bolt, there is extra clearance to function in a hunting environment which allows the bolt to move around during the firing cycle. This can and does upset the way the lugs lock up and how the bolt body is centered in the action raceways. Because there is inconsistency in the kaboom, it can cause irratic bullet launching.

But when both styles of actions are properly setup with quality barrels, for me, they shoot the same.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
After reading all of your responses to good advice I think you will be more than happy with your Salvage and Howa based rifles! After all, you were happy with a Mitsubishi Lancer at some point.

I wrote...

"...I own a prestigious German sports car, and could say "If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand". It performs no better than a Mitsubishi EVO I drove that cost half as much and performed just as well in every respect. But I own the German car because of build materials and quality...".

Never said I was happy with any Mitsubishi (EVO or Lancer, the donor car for the EVO). Your attempted insults destroy any credibility you might have had. - Phil
 
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This subject pops up all the time and the debate pretty much covers the same talking points. I am going to add my personal experience - take it for what it is.

I compete in F class and have used the Savage (Stevens 200 actually) from the start. Just added a wonderfully made, dead straight, solid lock up Pierce Titantium FTR single shot action a couple of years ago (John and crew are amazing to work with and their support both in knowledge and kit is top shelf).

I had been asking the same question and when I got the Pierce, it would certainly prove the point to me... what is my point of reference?

At 250yds, the rifles must print 1/4 to 1/3 min 5rds X 5 groups of the loads I would use to compete. At 1000yds, the rifles and loads have to give me the confidence to hit the X ring (5" circle) whether on the cold bore or after 30rds in searing summer heat (unlimited sighters and 20 for score.. I put a personal cap at 10 sighters). Rain or shine, shooting off a coal slag pile or mowed grass.

Was there a difference in mechanical accuracy with me driving the rifles? NOPE.... still use both rifles.

Is there an operational difference? YES

Positives - Pierce - stronger and more positive primary and secondary extraction. Yep, we run hot loads, add a bit of hot weather and sometimes, you need all the help you can get to extract that fired case. Under these circumstances, I have had problems with the Savage... the design of extraction camming isn't as good and will never be as good. With lower pressure loads, both operate wonderfully and with some TLC, the Savage runs as fast as the Pierce.

Trigger - I have used the rifle basix Savage2 since starting with the Savage actions. Great option and has proven robust, repeatable and reliable. What it can't do is consistently drop to the same light pull weights as the Jewell which I have on my Pierce. When I was starting, the heavier pull was actually a positive for me as "nerves" did cause a few unintentional trigger pulls. Today, I find the Jewell so much nicer to use and am very comfy with these super light pulls.

Care and Feeding - If I am going to a range that is really dirty or if heavy rain is expected, I would rather have my Savage vs the Pierce. The Savage is a hunting action after all, so lives quite happily when things get mucky - ie, there is plenty of places for dirt and water to get out. The Pierce has a wonderful vault tight lock up which can get dicey when alot of dirt/water is introduced. Lubing is a constant need with the Titanium to stop any chance of galling or stiffness in operation.

The savage can be run dry and like a rental....

For me, each has their place and I enjoy both very much. For the Savage, I will run moderate pressure loads giving me extra tuning room especially if lousy weather or large temp changes are expected. When soaking wet and chilled, I find the heavier trigger pull reassuring.

For the Pierce, if I want to throttle up to suit a "fast" barrel, I can do so with confidence that the fired case IS coming out of the action. The jewell is such a joy to use and really is my choice on those days when the relay becomes a "trigger pull".

I believe the floating bolt head of the Savage/Stevens resolves many of the harmonic ills found in solid bolt factory actions (which get fixed when these actions are blueprinted or what we pay for in a proper custom). When the bolt head is locked up, the rest of the bolt body is isolated from the kaboom and can flop around without any real affect on target. When the actions (yes, I have a few) were measured, the dimensions were dead straight from the receiver lug surface to receiver face including the threads. So at lock up, everything is as true as my Pierce.

On a typical factory solid bolt, there is extra clearance to function in a hunting environment which allows the bolt to move around during the firing cycle. This can and does upset the way the lugs lock up and how the bolt body is centered in the action raceways. Because there is inconsistency in the kaboom, it can cause irratic bullet launching.

But when both styles of actions are properly setup with quality barrels, for me, they shoot the same.

YMMV.

Jerry

Well said Jerry. Nice to hear a back-to-back comparison like this. Thank you. - Phil
 
well lets see, after 100+ posts where are we at ?. if one was on the fence about this i think one would still be there. it was like a poll, proved nothing, never does and never will. diff. strokes for diff. folks. the posts are great for entertainment value!, even ruffles a few feathers now and then. seems like some styles of shooters do not care for other styles,:( so be it. we as shooters are all looking for a destination.what that is and how we get there and what we use will vary greatly. what is best for you or me will be answered only by you or me. for serious shooters, if its shooting competition or just alone at the range,reguardless what type equipment they got, they are always going to try and put them all in the same hole. it's the name of the game. tighter tolerences with precision machineing, used for what ever, by who ever, will work better. is it monkey see monkey do ? it's more what is on the market, or who is using what, that will give an edge, which we all do, for all things. so, pick your poison, get out to the range, shoot and let me know what works, and what does not. after 60 yrs. i still need more help:) especially with that dang wind:eek:
 
well lets see, after 100+ posts where are we at ?. if one was on the fence about this i think one would still be there. it was like a poll, proved nothing, never does and never will. diff. strokes for diff. folks. the posts are great for entertainment value!, even ruffles a few feathers now and then. seems like some styles of shooters do not care for other styles,:( so be it. we as shooters are all looking for a destination.what that is and how we get there and what we use will vary greatly. what is best for you or me will be answered only by you or me. for serious shooters, if its shooting competition or just alone at the range,reguardless what type equipment they got, they are always going to try and put them all in the same hole. it's the name of the game. tighter tolerences with precision machineing, used for what ever, by who ever, will work better. is it monkey see monkey do ? it's more what is on the market, or who is using what, that will give an edge, which we all do, for all things. so, pick your poison, get out to the range, shoot and let me know what works, and what does not. after 60 yrs. i still need more help:) especially with that dang wind:eek:
Could it be they can't load or shoot is the reason for another action.
Next year what will be the excuse .
Smile. Larry
 
Could it be they can't load or shoot is the reason for another action.
Next year what will be the excuse .
Smile. Larry

Well Larry, since apparently all you need in F Class is 1/2 MOA to be great, you can probably do that with your magic tuner that tunes both vertical and horizontal. You shouldn't even waste time with hand loads. Factory ammo should do that and since a Savage will work for 1/2 MOA, why bother with all that pricey stuff. Wonder why Tony Boyer wastes his time on custom stuff? We'll probably see all Savages at the 2017 Super Shoot :rolleyes:

Rick :) just havin' a little fun with you guys
 
Well Larry, since apparently all you need in F Class is 1/2 MOA to be great, you can probably do that with your magic tuner that tunes both vertical and horizontal. You shouldn't even waste time with hand loads. Factory ammo should do that and since a Savage will work for 1/2 MOA, why bother with all that pricey stuff. Wonder why Tony Boyer wastes his time on custom stuff? We'll probably see all Savages at the 2017 Super Shoot :rolleyes:

Rick :) just havin' a little fun with you guys
I don't shoot f class but my savage has shot
1.058 and 1.336 at 600 yards also .625 20 shots at 300..
As far as Boyer he cold take anything and beat most shooters. You can't win as many years as he has and say it was the action .
Larry
 

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