Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?

[carlsbad]

YMMV. My opinion is the accuracy is in the barrel. Except for extreme examples the action doesn’t affect accuracy. Now the action does bring a lot of other important factors to bear: I like a nice side bolt release. I want my prmary extraction timing to be correct. I true the face of the bolt, back of the lugs, and bush the firing pin to .061. I like a smooth tight fitting bolt that falls like a knife through hot butter. And i love a beautiful finish. You do get what you pay for IMO. Jerry

 

[M14AMU]

You'd never convince those that invest in them....that they don't!

I just use regular old pizz poor Remington actions!

 

[BoydAllen]

Phil3,
Perhaps you might want to start another thread, asking what can be done to a Remington to make it more accurate. The list is longer than some would believe, which is one of the main reason that clones have become so popular. I'll throw one out there that should stir things up a bit. I think that even if you are using a magazine, I believe that there is an advantage to gluing the action into the stock. (For many applications this would involve the belt and suspenders approach, pillar bedding first, and then gluing.) Of course this would require trigger pin holes in the stock, but that is the way that it was done in the days before trigger hanger/brackets. Those who have experience with glued in actions, it kind of funny to watch folks go off about how this would be some sort of a problem, almost as fun as listening to them rationalize about not loading at the range to do their load workups, or not using flags. For some the noise is a lot louder.

 

[Phil3]

Phil3,
Perhaps you might want to start another thread, asking what can be done to a Remington to make it more accurate. The list is longer than some would believe, which is one of the main reason that clones have become so popular. I'll throw one out there that should stir things up a bit. I think that even if you are using a magazine, I believe that there is an advantage to gluing the action into the stock. (For many applications this would involve the belt and suspenders approach, pillar bedding first, and then gluing.) Of course this would require trigger pin holes in the stock, but that is the way that it was done in the days before trigger hanger/brackets. Those who have experience with glued in actions, it kind of funny to watch folks go off about how this would be some sort of a problem, almost as fun as listening to them rationalize about not loading at the range to do their load workups, or not using flags. For some the noise is a lot louder.

Boyd,

Maybe I will do that (start another thread), as that would help understand the areas that are ripe for improvement, why they make those improvements and perhaps people could speak to benefits they saw by going through that exercise. Say, a stock Remington with great barrel, and then same Remington trued with same barrel. I have already received a comment from a person that did this, but more info would be interesting. I may be able to try this with actions I have now. No Remingtons, but one Savage and two Howas.

Someone here advised me on the wind flags, and after seeing on JBM Ballistics what a full-value 1 mph breeze could do to my 53 grain 223 bullet at 100 yards, I have a new appreciation for wind. My range will allow flags, so a good thing. Was looking at Graham flags.

I know less than nothing about glued in actions and the trigger arrangement, but am curious.

Phil

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/f-s-new-panda-action.3908513/

 

[BoydAllen]

The reason that most of the factory action benchrest work has been done with Remington actions is that they have the best trigger options, and they make sleeving quite a bit easier, due to their shape. On the flags, Rick Grahams are very well designed and made. Wind flags and tuning at the range are a couple of very large steps forward. What sort of stocks and bedding do your rifles have?

 

[284winner]

All this information and opinions are what we all sign into this forum for. It's clean, healthy discussion that keeps the mind at work and spurs many different opinions and YES a few heated disagreements but all healthy. This is why i stop by Daily. To give my cent and a half and read all the guys that know oh so much more than I do about this game of shooting dots. I love it and will do it until the good Lord says I'm done. I enjoy and learn from all you guys and even more keeps my mind on this stuff rather than other less than fun things in life.

 

[Phil3]

The reason that most of the factory action benchrest work has been done with Remington actions is that they have the best trigger options, and they make sleeving quite a bit easier, due to their shape. On the flags, Rick Grahams are very well designed and made. Wind flags and tuning at the range are a couple of very large steps forward. What sort of stocks and bedding do your rifles have?

No question, tons of stuff for the Remington.

The Graham flags are not too pricey and seem well regarded. Does investing in shooting ever reach an end?

My rifles, stocks and bedding situation is:

1) Howa 223 factory barreled action (heavy varmint barrel), in a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock. Has been bedded by a gunsmith.
2) Howa large face action, with no stock. Considering a chassis, given the very high cost of a McMillan or Manners, plus mag and bedding. Will be a 6.5x47 with premium barrel.
3) Savage Precision Target Action (right bolt, left port) single shot in a H-S Precision PSV-106 stock w/aluminum bedding block (same stock used on Savage Long Range Precision Varminter). Not bedded, but not sure if necessary. This will be a 6mmBR, most likely with a Brux barrel.

Phil

 

[BoydAllen]

Like you, I cannot predict the outcome of bedding the HS Precision stock that is on your Savage, but if you decide to....yourself, there is some information on erniethegunsmith.com relating to bedding a block, using something that he sells called "Accu Risers" that you should read. A friend did a HS for a Remington he barreled in a similar manner and it shoots lights out. Beyond the products that he sells, there is a lot of good information on that site. On triggers, there has been some progress on what is available for Howas. And for the savage, back in the day, I wrote what was probably the first article (that was published in Precision Shooting magazine) about the Rifle Basix Sav II trigger. I installed one on a single shot long action .220 swift. That trigger could be set up for a 4 oz. pull weight. On the Howas, I presume that you know about the Timney, but have you seen this?
http://www.jardinc.com/weatherby-vanguard/

 

[Phil]

yep funny part is bought all the same stocks I mean same color and configuration so his wife wouldn't notice a new gun spin up a barrel try it wasn't what expected and down the road

LOL....Thinking ahead......

 

[Raythemanroe]

Custom actions come to order.. A drop port doesn't require an ejector. Trigger and timing is "HUGE" to concede while requiring more..Fire control, then there are basic functionality which very for custom actions as well.. Smoother actions make for better results while running of ten rounds in a certain condition..Add everything together, in the end when your looking for an advantage it usually is every little gain that can make the difference... Get one and stop wondering why!!

Ray

 

[Phil3]

Custom actions come to order.. A drop port doesn't require an ejector. Trigger and timing is "HUGE" to concede while requiring more..Fire control, then there are basic functionality which very for custom actions as well.. Smoother actions make for better results while running of ten rounds in a certain condition..Add everything together, in the end when your looking for an advantage it usually is every little gain that can make the difference... Get one and stop wondering why!!

Ray

All no doubt true, but I don't compete, so things like ease of "running of ten rounds" are irrelevant for me.

 

[Phil3]

Like you, I cannot predict the outcome of bedding the HS Precision stock that is on your Savage, but if you decide to....yourself, there is some information on erniethegunsmith.com relating to bedding a block, using something that he sells called "Accu Risers" that you should read. A friend did a HS for a Remington he barreled in a similar manner and it shoots lights out. Beyond the products that he sells, there is a lot of good information on that site. On triggers, there has been some progress on what is available for Howas. And for the savage, back in the day, I wrote what was probably the first article (that was published in Precision Shooting magazine) about the Rifle Basix Sav II trigger. I installed one on a single shot long action .220 swift. That trigger could be set up for a 4 oz. pull weight. On the Howas, I presume that you know about the Timney, but have you seen this?
http://www.jardinc.com/weatherby-vanguard/

Boyd,

A really great site you referenced. I have a lathe at home and could make these, but at $12,95, will buy.

The Jard trigger I did not know about. Howa changed the trigger, so the one I have in the unused action I have not tested. But, good to know more options are available.

Thank you for this information. Very helpful!

Phil

 

[BoydAllen]

I have looked at diagrams of the new trigger, and it looks to be a good design that could probably benefit from a trigger spring change to one that has smaller diameter wire.

 

[Va Jim]

Yeah, this is the tired old argument that always comes up....the lemming theory. By extension, the actual verifiable results of competition in hunter class before and after the custom rule can be applied to any form of short range registered Benchrest competition. IF the enhanced factory guns where actually capable of taking a top shooter to the top of the results board, then WHERE ARE THEY? As in any form of competition, there are always some who delight in competing with the minimalist concept of keeping it simple at the least cost by using "underdog" equipment - just to prove a point....yet virtually NO ONE shows up at tournaments, i.e. States, Regionals, or Nationals with one- much less competes with one.
For all you hot shots who think you can be a player with non-customs come out to matches and give it your best shot......IF you do well, then attend a tournament and if you do well there....you'll be the buzz of all the internet shooting chat rooms for months.... you will be a Daily Bulletin feature, you'll be a hero to the masses.....and maybe get sponsored by the action manufacturer.
FWIW, I've BTDT...I have 4 BR rigs, 2 customs and 2 based on Remington 700's (vey much enhanced). In 15 years of competition the customs are the only guns that have given me a win ...or at least put me at the top tier.....and I still campaign with all of them ...just to "try and prove the non-custom can compete"....well it hasn't happened yet and shows no signs of ever happening......but I'll still keep trying ....in the interest of scientific study

It HAS actually happened look at the 2012 FTR National Championship results. It was won using a stock savage action. In fairness it did have a custom stock but the action and trigger were bone stock. After 4 relays out 8 that savage had the lead on everyone including all the Fopen rifles. Now can it happen, YES, does it happen very often no but i don't think the actions make the difference. Pick up my new custom and it is smooth as glass then grab the savage and not quite the same. But again I just love it when told it cant be done. It can be done on the 1000 yd line. Rant over.
James Crofts
2012 FTR National Champion
Stock Savage Action
Stock Savage Trigger.

 

[Greyfox]

It HAS actually happened look at the 2012 FTR National Championship results. It was won using a stock savage action. In fairness it did have a custom stock but the action and trigger were bone stock. After 4 relays out 8 that savage had the lead on everyone including all the Fopen rifles. Now can it happen, YES, does it happen very often no but i don't think the actions make the difference. Pick up my new custom and it is smooth as glass then grab the savage and not quite the same. But again I just love it when told it cant be done. It can be done on the 1000 yd line. Rant over.
James Crofts
2012 FTR National Champion
Stock Savage Action
Stock Savage Trigger.

While I congradulate your win, F Class and precision shooting don't belong in the same sentence. No offense intended, it just is what it is. Come back here and report when a Savage wins the Super Shoot or any large benchrest match sanctioned by IBS, NBRSA or UBR (custom class). Not saying it couldn't happen, but it hasn't yet. UBR is probably the most likely, but in 6 years of competition it hasn't happened yet.

Rick

 

[LHSmith]

All no doubt true, but I don't compete, so things like ease of "running of ten rounds" are irrelevant for me.

I don't want to be condescending, but....based on the fact you never use flags and the above comment -it appears you do not have a clue as to why it is essential to run rounds down range in order to net the absolute maximum accuracy. True, you might be able to "pick" your way to small groups....but that method has it's pitfalls if you don't know how to compensate for them. This applies to all shooting, competitive or not.
IMHO custom actions are a shortcut to the learning curve of shooting accurately....the chances are orders of magnitude greater that coupled with a decent barrel you will have a gun that you can trust. Trust is huge.... the reason for errant shots will be narrowed down to other factors....not the gun. This is the quickest way to learning to read the wind. Attempting to make wind calls with a gun that throws shots will waste time and money and EXTREMELY frustrating.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

A good read within a useful thread:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?83962-Savage-vs-Custom-Action&p=684853#post684853

 

[CharlieNC]

While I congradulate your win, F Class and precision shooting don't belong in the same sentence. No offense intended, it just is what it is. Come back here and report when a Savage wins the Super Shoot or any large benchrest match sanctioned by IBS, NBRSA or UBR (custom class). Not saying it couldn't happen, but it hasn't yet. UBR is probably the most likely, but in 6 years of competition it hasn't happened yet.

Rick

Different strokes for different folks; they all have their different types of challenges. While I have only been shooting five years since retirement, I quickly abandoned shooting from a bench. I found it less interesting using a fully supported rifle than learning to manage recoil in the prone position with much less support to rely on. I rarely see anyone here interested in PRS or tactical types of shooting. As this relates to the advantages of actions, I think that depends significantly on how accurate shooting is defined - ie the discipline you choose to shoot. A WWII vintage Chinese action with all its slop would not have a chance in any of these fields. I have seen pretty stock Savages win quite a few tactical matches when pitted against customs; of course this is very dependent on the shooter vs just adequate gear. I think much of this applies for the OP, in which case it just sounds like he is early into the game and just wants to hit targets at longer yardages. A bit further up the road is the time to better define the discipline and the goals, and then refine the equipment to suit the task.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

This is the OP's goal:

"Just building a rifle that I hope can shoot more often than not, .25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards ... "

That's dedicated BR rifle territory, hence the direction that the sensible advice has gone.