Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?

[dskogman]

I have no interest in BR. Nor am I interested in the ultimate limits of accuracy. But, if I try to hit something at 1000 yards, even if off a bipod and light rear bag, I would like all the help I can get, and if a custom action helps accuracy to a measurable degree, then great, I will use that and appreciate the fine workmanship and operation as well.
Phil

I shot both this last weekend in a local match and while not a scientific test may be instructive. I shot the first two relays (20 shots each) with a Savage PTA in 308 with a 30" McGowen barrel and the last with a Barnard action in 6.5x47 with a 30" Bartlein. The Savage did well but the Barnard was better (18x vs 20x) although some of that is due to better optics and more time tuning the load on the 6.5. Qualitatively though the stiffer bolt action and heavier trigger certainly affected consistency and accuracy. I will continue to play with the Savage with a new trigger/tune and think it can get close but if I only had to pick one it would be the Barnard hands down.

 

[ab_bentley]

You know why a custom is worth the money, because it sells peace of mind, which breeds confidence, and confidence breeds accuracy. For no other reason than peace of mind does a custom action sell.

Rational thinking- I bought the best action, best barrel, and sent it to the best smith. It'll shoot tiny bughole groups.

That's why a custom action is so popular, not the fact that is tolerances are tighter or is smooth, it's the plain and simple fact it instills confidence in the owner, again confidence breeds accuracy.

Adam

 

[284winner]

Barrels are what produce the actual accuracy. Sure it's a component package thing but as stated earlier, the action and it's quality perform in a different way. The only requirement of the action for accuracy is it must be square to the breech of the barrel and the bolt face be the same. Everything else is a desire on the shooters part. The next biggest factor is the Optic, ammunition and shooter. This is how I see accuracy and where it comes from.

 

[dkhunt14]

Barrels are what produce the actual accuracy. Sure it's a component package thing but as stated earlier, the action and it's quality perform in a different way. The only requirement of the action for accuracy is it must be square to the breech of the barrel and the bolt face be the same. Everything else is a desire on the shooters part. The next biggest factor is the Optic, ammunition and shooter. This is how I see accuracy and where it comes from.

Put a weak or dragging firing pin in one and tell me about accuracy. They will reek havoc on a long range gun. Seen guns go from shooting 16 inches plus to less then 5 inches just from a spring change. Actions have more to play then you think. Fire control is really important. Matt

 

[Phil3]

Speak for yourself. We DO know. YOU just haven't read (or haven't been convinced by) the relevant material (e.g., Vaughn). Some of the most compelling data were even posted in this thread.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...enhance-accuracy.3908616/page-2#post-36823840

I am a professional scientist, I have read the relevant literature, and it's very clear (from Vaughn's extensive research) that action stiffness, symmetry, and correct geometry all matter for accuracy as measured by aggregate group size (which is itself a fairly poor descriptor compared to mean radius or radial standard deviation, but that's a separate discussion).

But if you want to try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t, it's a (relatively) free country.

As already stated, I intend to read Vaughn, IF I can get my hands on the book and will willingly take his reputed strong research as evidence of the benefits of a custom action. I am not resistant to the "relevant material". I just have not found it. I will not respond to insults.

Yeah, this is the tired old argument that always comes up....the lemming theory. By extension, the actual verifiable results of competition in hunter class before and after the custom rule can be applied to any form of short range registered Benchrest competition. IF the enhanced factory guns where actually capable of taking a top shooter to the top of the results board, then WHERE ARE THEY? As in any form of competition, there are always some who delight in competing with the minimalist concept of keeping it simple at the least cost by using "underdog" equipment - just to prove a point....yet virtually NO ONE shows up at tournaments, i.e. States, Regionals, or Nationals with one- much less competes with one.

For all you hot shots who think you can be a player with non-customs come out to matches and give it your best shot......IF you do well, then attend a tournament and if you do well there....you'll be the buzz of all the internet shooting chat rooms for months.... you will be a Daily Bulletin feature, you'll be a hero to the masses.....and maybe get sponsored by the action manufacturer.

FWIW, I've BTDT...I have 4 BR rigs, 2 customs and 2 based on Remington 700's (vey much enhanced). In 15 years of competition the customs are the only guns that have given me a win ...or at least put me at the top tier.....and I still campaign with all of them ...just to "try and prove the non-custom can compete"....well it hasn't happened yet and shows no signs of ever happening......but I'll still keep trying ....in the interest of scientific study

Lemming theory... Maybe it keeps coming up for a good reason.

OK, I can't make this more clear. I would absolutely get a custom action IF I competed. I would do so even if it was absolutely 100% provable that accuracy is not enhanced over a factory stock action on single shot tests. Why? Because I know in competition, speed, minimal disruption to POI, reliability, etc., IS important in competition and a custom is the best for this. But I don't compete. Speed of operation, minimal disruption to POI, and even reliability are just not that important. So please, stop trying to use competition results as evidence that customs are inherently superior in accuracy. They very well may be and am eager to read the Vaughn book to understand exactly how.

You know why a custom is worth the money, because it sells peace of mind, which breeds confidence, and confidence breeds accuracy. For no other reason than peace of mind does a custom action sell.

Rational thinking- I bought the best action, best barrel, and sent it to the best smith. It'll shoot tiny bughole groups.

That's why a custom action is so popular, not the fact that is tolerances are tighter or is smooth, it's the plain and simple fact it instills confidence in the owner, again confidence breeds accuracy.

Adam

I never questioned whether a custom was worth the money or how it makes a shooter feel. My question asked HOW a custom design enhances accuracy over a factory action.

Your "rational thinking", works, albeit potentially excessively expensive. I would rather say, "I bought the best components that have proven to improve accuracy and had assembled by the best smith I could find. It'll shoot tiny bugholes groups". To do that, I need knowledge on what components contribute to accuracy and which are less important, and purchase accordingly.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

Put a weak or dragging firing pin in one and tell me about accuracy. They will reek havoc on a long range gun. Seen guns go from shooting 16 inches plus to less then 5 inches just from a spring change. Actions have more to play then you think. Fire control is really important. Matt

Matt, this peaks my curiosity. I don't understand how the firing pin can seriously affect accuracy. I am not disagreeing, but not understanding HOW it would affect accuracy. Just what is happening that affects accuracy and how?

Phil

 

[ab_bentley]

I never questioned whether a custom was worth the money or how it makes a shooter feel. My question asked HOW a custom design enhances accuracy over a factory action.

Your "rational thinking", works, albeit potentially excessively expensive. I would rather say, "I bought the best components that have proven to improve accuracy and had assembled by the best smith I could find. It'll shoot tiny bugholes groups". To do that, I need knowledge on what components contribute to accuracy and which are less important, and purchase accordingly.

Phil

That's how a custom action is better, it might be measurable on tolerances, but that doesn't mean they're better. I have a slew of targets that you couldn't tell what action was used.

A custom action is more accurate because wet think it is, it's like proving there is a God. Some believe and some don't. Even though there's "proof" through living creatures to those that believe in God, those same creatures are explained by science to those that don't believe.

It's an inherent believe that tighter tolerances, better lug contact, different ignition systems, and so forth, make a more accurate rifle, that makes a more accurate rifle.

Your wear your fastest shoes to run the race.

Adam

 

[Tim Singleton]

Way past time for the ignore button for me
I'm out

 

[JDMock]

As a friend of mine likes to say, "Why do the drivers in NASCAR not use flat head Ford engines?" Why, they once dominated the circuit. As some had stated above, the Remington actions once dominated, but look at the results of the big matches today. Good shooting...James Mock

 

[savagedasher]

How can I get my hands on some of that "titiamum?"

Check with the steel suppliers Larry

As a friend of mine likes to say, "Why do the drivers in NASCAR not use flat head Ford engines?" Why, they once dominated the circuit. As some had stated above, the Remington actions once dominated, but look at the results of the big matches today. Good shooting...James Mock[/

Why doesn't NASCAR drivers use a 500 CID hemi. Smile Larry

 

[johnfred1965]

Matt, this peaks my curiosity. I don't understand how the firing pin can seriously affect accuracy. I am not disagreeing, but not understanding HOW it would affect accuracy. Just what is happening that affects accuracy and how?

Phil

Inconsistent ignition

 

[284winner]

Put a weak or dragging firing pin in one and tell me about accuracy. They will reek havoc on a long range gun. Seen guns go from shooting 16 inches plus to less then 5 inches just from a spring change. Actions have more to play then you think. Fire control is really important. Matt

Well ya I guess accuracy COULD be affected by several reasons in an action. A bad firing pin can cause the same problem in a custom action as well. Accuracy also can suffer from a Nick in the crown of a barrel. We still know that barrels are what produce the most accuracy from the gun. Barreled action to stock fit is another. The question was, does a custom action inhance accuracy? I too say NO.

 

[johnfred1965]

Many people on this thread have tried to explain How a custom action is better, the who, what where when and why of a custom being better, and without being satisfied, the question switches to "how much" I DON"T have a PhD, I"m just a poor podunk from KY that likes to shoot. Since all the first questions have been answered, here is an answer to "How much better"

SInce this is tuesday, after high noon in my area, the sun is shining, wind from the NW, temp in the high 80's, my rifle was not cleaned for 23 shots, lot #xxxxxx powder, lot #xxxxxx bullet, Lapua brass lot #xxxxx, Fed primers, I had eggs for breakfast, the humidity is 52%, BC of 278 G7, altitude 455 ft, etc, etc, a custom will shoot .046 inch better at 100 yds measured with my rangefinder, if I am shooting east. However, sicne this is the 5th tuesday of the month before the autumn equinox, the custom will only shoot .041 better. If I had had french toast for breakfast, the difference would be .056(I like French toast)

The point is, there are hundreds of variables that make a rifle shoot or not. A custom minimizes the varibles associated with the action. If you are familar with Bryab Litz's WEZ analysis, He evaluates ammo accuracy changing ONE varible at a time, bullet, case, powder, wind, temp, alt, etc. To do this with an action to find out exactly how much accuracy is effected, you would have to change each aspect of the action individually and evaluate, which would be prohibitively expensive, time consuming, and difficult, so you have to take the custom action as a whole, that on any particular day, it may be, most likely, better than anything else, by an amount that may or may not be quantifiable.

And here is another tidbit: You would think that professional shooters, with lives on the line would choose the best available custom action to be had, but the United States sniper relies on a trued up 700 to defend this country out past 1000 yards. If he had a custom, he might shoot 1/2" better groups, but it would still be center mass.

I always enjoy shooting all my rifles, and I just joined the custom club with a fine borden action. I'll let you know if it shoots better every day of the week, and if I have coffee and donuts, rather than steak and eggs that morning

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I don't know why this is a topic.

Everyone knows that custom actions are prettier. Prettier actions shoot better. Therefore, custom actions shoot better.

A remington/savage/factory action can be worked on until it's nearly as pretty as a custom action and therefore, by the transitive property established above, will shoot better (see above re: cusom actions)

 

[BoydAllen]

Before giving an answer to whether custom actions are more accurate, I think that a question needs to be asked, that being, for who? The reason that I say that is that I can get a tuned up Remington to shoot quarter inch groups if it is in the right rifle and the right caliber, but from there on down, it gets a lot harder, and if the shooter and the whole system are not running like a well oiled machine, load tuned, wind flags out, the most suitable rest, great bench, a shooter that is capable of shooting smaller than a .2 under perfect conditions...the difference is likely not to matter. There is a saying in short range benchrest. You can't buy an agg. What that means is that simply buying all of the right stuff is no guarantee of winning performance. Most shooters are not into looking at their rifles' agging ability. They enjoy wallet groups, and some talk about all day long, etc. For most of them, a rifle based on a tuned up factory action may give them every bit of what they are capable of, but if you want to do the whole thing, everything that can be done, the cost difference of a custom action becomes insignificant. As with many things, the answer to the question is "It depends".

 

[johnfred1965]

I don't know why this is a topic.

Everyone knows that custom actions are prettier. Prettier actions shoot better. Therefore, custom actions shoot better.

A remington/savage/factory action can be worked on until it's nearly as pretty as a custom action and therefore, by the transitive property established above, will shoot better (see above re: cusom actions)

IS the 6mm ppc better than the 6mm br? Why? by how much? I know, I know, I'm being a jerk, just having fun now

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

IS the 6mm ppc better than the 6mm br? Why? by how much? I know, I know, I'm being a jerk, just having fun now

Read Glenn Newick's book. He campaigned a 6BR (Rem) for awhile in the 1980s, with some success. He rechambered a winning 6BR to 6PPC and it shot better aggs over an extended period of time. Does one barrel prove that a 6PPC is superior in the short-range game? No, but at least there are real data from a top competitor, as opposed to the many uninformed opinions that this thread has elicited.

Here's another question with an obvious answer that will not prevent the 'puter-shooters from weighing in: Do custom bullets shoot better than mass-produced bullets?

 

[johnfred1965]

Read Glenn Newick's book. He campaigned a 6BR (Rem) for awhile in the 1980s, with some success. He rechambered a winning 6BR to 6PPC and it shot better aggs over an extended period of time. Does one barrel prove that a 6PPC is superior in the short-range game? No, but at least there are real data from a top competitor, as opposed to the many uninformed opinions that this thread has elicited.

Here's another question with an obvious answer that will not prevent the 'puter-shooters from weighing in: Do custom bullets shoot better than mass-produced bullets?

Depends on if berger is still considered a custom

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Depends on if berger is still considered a custom

It doesn't matter much either way. See for yourself (attached).

 

[Phil3]

Before giving an answer to whether custom actions are more accurate, I think that a question needs to be asked, that being, for who? The reason that I say that is that I can get a tuned up Remington to shoot quarter inch groups if it is in the right rifle and the right caliber, but from there on down, it gets a lot harder, and if the shooter and the whole system are not running like a well oiled machine, load tuned, wind flags out, the most suitable rest, great bench, a shooter that is capable of shooting smaller than a .2 under perfect conditions...the difference is likely not to matter. There is a saying in short range benchrest. You can't buy an agg. What that means is that simply buying all of the right stuff is no guarantee of winning performance. Most shooters are not into looking at their rifles' agging ability. They enjoy wallet groups, and some talk about all day long, etc. For most of them, a rifle based on a tuned up factory action may give them every bit of what they are capable of, but if you want to do the whole thing, everything that can be done, the cost difference of a custom action becomes insignificant. As with many things, the answer to the question is "It depends".

Boyd, you said it well.

I wrote in post #51, "...I have no interest in BR. Nor am I interested in the ultimate limits of accuracy. But, if I try to hit something at 1000 yards, even if off a bipod and light rear bag, I would like all the help I can get, and if a custom action helps accuracy to a measurable degree, then great, I will use that and appreciate the fine workmanship and operation as well...".

The bottom line for me is that I want to shoot as small a group as possible using a bipod or bean bag, along with a squishy rear bag, in a non-BR platform. Unfortunately, I will be shooting at 100 yards the vast majority of the time. It seems from what I have learned here, that a custom action is overkill for ME and my shooting. Sure, it might be more accurate, but not enough for me to care about, with group size improvement more likely to come from a superior barrel, trigger, shooting practice, etc.

Still, I am very interested in just how a custom can or does enhance accuracy, even if I never engage in an activity that would be affected by the findings (as apparently shown by Vaughn's book). It is simply very interesting to me.

Ignition is extremely important and its why some guns never shoot to their potential. The drop of the firing pin starts all of the harmonics in a rifle. The firing of a primer needs twice the energy required to fire it for it to fire consistently. Just going bang means nothing. There is a reason Bat redesigned their firing pin assembly. It has been proven. Even what most would consider a top of the line action saw improvement on a rail with this change. If your not interested in Benchrest this topic should not interest you either. Because to shoot small enough to find these issues requires Benchrest style shooting. Your not going to see this out in the field where it will get lost in the noise. I know a competitor with 2 identical ppc rifles. One of them will shoot smaller than the other even with the same barrel. 2 of the same everything. It follows the bolt. Same reason some rifle seem to always get really good barrels while others dont. In competition you get to see these things.

Interesting to me, even though I do not shoot BR. And yes, I know out in the field, or with my kind of shooting, I probably will not "detect" an accuracy improvement from a revised firing pin design. But if an improvement does exist (as discovered through BR shooting), I would expect that change to produce better groups, in any kind of shooting (even if lost in the "noise"). I mean, if I was shooting 5" groups at 600 yards off a bipod and light rear bag, would not the use of this improved firing pin design help shrink a bit those groups, all else being equal? I may not notice the change on-target, but at least I would know that I am using a design that does enhance accuracy.