Current F-Class National Records

[Medic505]

Another argument for the "it doesn't matter group". Pull up the FT-R scores from the Berger SWN's. Looks to me like it's just as hard or harder to end up in the top five in Expert as it is to do so in Master class. As a matter of fact, a Expert won the whole thing. There are many good shooters out there and for the most part they are just getting better. In the "old days", all of 4 years ago, when I started if you could shoot in the 570's in a midrange F-TR match chances were pretty good you'd win something. Now, if you shoot under a 590, might as well pack your bags and go home.
I look at it like this, I don't care if you are a High Master or a first timer shooting unclassified, you can win.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ben, we do not shoot against F-T/R shooters, so it doesn't matter if its easier in F-Open as compared to F-T/R to make HM.

If you ever shoot a National match you will understand that it doesn't matter.

What's next? To calibrate the percentages depending on where you shoot? Also, would you have a different classification for guys shooting Palma course than 1,000 yards because it's easier to shoot a higher percentage shooting Palma course?

And what about midrange, different classification for 300 & 600 yards? It's much easier to make HM at 300 yards than at 600. What about guys shooting higher BC bullets, it's easier for this guys too, so lets have one more classification for those guys.

 

[effendude]

Since I started this post, and it has gotten way off the original topic now with the classification discussion, I'd like to close out by saying the purpose of the post was to point out that whatever discipline is being discussed, the top shooters are using the best equipment and doing whatever is necessary to get the most out of it.

Now the F-class shooters are arguing amongst themselves, not with the BR guys! How did that happen?

Arguing whose discipline is more difficult might be best done over a beer, not the internet.

Scott

 

[dkhunt14]

See this is what I was trying to tell you I haven't posted on either thread since my original post was made and most of the BR guys have stayed out of it also. I had almost 10 pages of PM's and I tried to answer them all. Most of my pm's in the past plus what people have told me is that they do have to put as much in loading or have the time too. (Or need too) I posted what I said on that locked link; nothing more then what a lot has told me and nothing mean. I didn't do anything wrong and was called all kind of names. Good luck with your shooting. Matt

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Geez, you really know how to stop a discussion, don't you.

I was having fun watching Ben spin.

 

[NateHaler]

Again, can't we all respect each other's discipline and stop the bashing? They have way more in common than they have differences.

Scott

I don't see any bashing in this thread, but using that term -- a favorite of the liberals -- does p*$$ me off, so ...

Nothing wrong with spirited discussion or disagreement. The left wants everybody to look different but act the same.

Ultimately, why do you care what somebody else thinks? "F" em, as your Forum name itself! 8)

 

[Medic505]

"Now the F-class shooters are arguing amongst themselves, not with the BR guys! How did that happen? Arguing whose discipline is more difficult might be best done over a beer, not the internet."

F'ers will pretty much argue about anything, and if done over beer we'd argue which brand to drink, do you pour it directly into the mug or hold off, proper cant of the said mug plus I'm sure what temp is proper would come up at some point. Ahhhh life is good......

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Well, to me the classifications are like milestones. I keep track of all my scores and it's fun when I reach another level. It was difficult for me to reach LR Master because I rarely shoot a Palma format; it's always 1000.

It's nice to see the progression but I fear the last level will probably stay out of reach.

 

[broncman]

I will throw in my 2 cents worth as a young shooter...

Erik if it does not matter, then lets throw out the whole classification system and top score and agg wins everything?

High Master is not a level playing field across the disciplines...

As a young shooter, it is easy to get caught up in the ranking game. Personally for me score and agg is more important than rank. I knew the little "High Master" sig line would be a very expensive and lengthy (if attainable) proposition for FTR.

But FTR forces a skill set in the wind that I personally want... Sticking with FTR.

 

[Erud]

I will throw in my 2 cents worth as a young shooter...

Erik if it does not matter, then lets throw out the whole classification system and top score and agg wins everything?

High Master is not a level playing field across the disciplines...

As a young shooter, it is easy to get caught up in the ranking game. Personally for me score and agg is more important than rank. I knew the little "High Master" sig line would be a very expensive and lengthy (if attainable) proposition for FTR.

But FTR forces a skill set in the wind that I personally want... Sticking with FTR.

Getting rid of the classification system would rarely make any difference. Someone who isn't a high master can still win a match or agg, it just doesn't happen that often. High Masters get to be High Masters by shooting High Master scores, so they tend to win matches also. The whole point of the classification system is for shooters of similar skill levels to compete against each other. There is no reason to change classification percentages, target sizes or anything else. Pick what you want to do and try to do it.

 

[Medic505]

Very true Erud.

 

[Steve Blair]

But FTR forces a skill set in the wind that I personally want... Sticking with FTR.

[br]
I shoot both F-TR and F-Open. Made Master in F-TR and HM in F-Open. Your inexperience shows if you think that an F-TR shooter has better wind reading skills than an F-Open shooter, on that basis alone. When switching between the two, it doesn't take much to make the adjustment in hold and estimation. Now, if you want to talk about rifle management in either, that's another story. But, the ability to read wind is universal if you understand your cartridge's ballistics. [br]
When I shot my 6BR at 600 for the first time in almost two years, it caused some problems. After shooting either a .284 Shehane or .300 WSM at 600, both of which have much reduced deflection (but not zero) compared to 6BR, I was beaten in a fishtailing tail wind in the third match by underestimating effect. The next month, shooting the same rifle, I won overall. A shooter just needs to work with the tools he or she has and not worry about what some other discipline is doing.

 

[broncman]

I do understand what you are saying, but if the whole push is to find a cartridge in F open or a Bullet in FTR that handle s the wind better, then why shoot your .284 Shehane at all? Why not a straight 284?

Because you were wanting as much competitive edge as possible!

I chose to stay with FTR because it forces me as a young shooter to pay more attention to the wind, as the consequences are higher! Hopefully this helps me learn wind characteristics faster than if I were switching between calibers or even bullet weights.

I guess as a young shooter, sticking with the same load/caliber instead of hopscotching to the latest thing or bullet in any discipline, F open or FTR would yeild the same benefits... Consistency long enough to learn that discipline

 

[Erik Cortina]

Broncman, I hear that argument a lot. In reality, if you are an F-Open shooter and you don't pay attention to the wind you are not going to do well at all.

I'm going to turn your argument against you. If you really want to be forced to read the wind, why don't you shoot a .223?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Broncman, I hear that argument a lot. In reality, if you are an F-Open shooter and you don't pay attention to the wind you are not going to do well at all.

I'm going to turn your argument against you. If you really want to be forced to read the wind, why don't you shoot a .223?

Bingo.

 

[broncman]

That is what I shoot at Midrange! ;D

Joking aside, they are the what I built first and have the most components for.
I actually built a 6BR and decided that if I was going to learn anything at all I needed to stick with one thing instead of jumping around.

I started out in 2004 shooting a 223 FTR at 600 at Butner. When time and funds allowed me to get back into it I decided to go with FTR 308 for 1000 because of the familiarity. I still like to shoot my 223 at 600 yard matches.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

LBart,

Do you happen to recall the % of overall F-Class HMs at long range?

 

[Steve Blair]

I do understand what you are saying, but if the whole push is to find a cartridge in F open or a Bullet in FTR that handle s the wind better, then why shoot your .284 Shehane at all? Why not a straight 284?

Because you were wanting as much competitive edge as possible!

[br]
I shoot Berger 155.5 Fullbore bullets from a 10" twist F-TR rifle in one of our monthly Mid Range Matches. My 6BR is more challenging than my LR rifles to shoot well at Camp Pendleton's MR matches because of the coastal winds. But, both can be shot to win if the correct wind call is made and you know the cartridge ballistics.

 

[jscandale]

F class motorcycle...

HAHA, just kid'n ;D

JS

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I will throw in my 2 cents worth as a young shooter...

Erik if it does not matter, then lets throw out the whole classification system and top score and agg wins everything?

High Master is not a level playing field across the disciplines...

As a young shooter, it is easy to get caught up in the ranking game. Personally for me score and agg is more important than rank. I knew the little "High Master" sig line would be a very expensive and lengthy (if attainable) proposition for FTR.

But FTR forces a skill set in the wind that I personally want... Sticking with FTR.

Getting rid of the classification system would rarely make any difference. Someone who isn't a high master can still win a match or agg, it just doesn't happen that often. High Masters get to be High Masters by shooting High Master scores, so they tend to win matches also. The whole point of the classification system is for shooters of similar skill levels to compete against each other. There is no reason to change classification percentages, target sizes or anything else. Pick what you want to do and try to do it.

Might come and try out the next World F-Class Championships to be held in Canada in 2016? F-Class marksmanship classifications are paid no heed in the World Championships...F-Open competitors shoot on par with everyone else!. Interestingly, in the top 25 F-Open competitors at the 2013 Worlds held last August in Raton, all were HM's except for 6 MA's...and a MA came in second place.

Dan Biggs
Team Berger