Current F-Class National Records

[nosualc]

F-Open and LR BR share many similarities, especially in equipment, but the context in which they are used are completely different.

Different enough to make valid comparisons difficult and dismissive/dogmatic comments foolhardy.

I don't think an accomplished F-Open shooter could go to his first LR BR tournament of sufficient competition and win. Nor do I think the inverse is likely.

Could either be competitive? maybe.

Could either have fun? certainly. 'sposed to be fun, isn't it?

-nosualc

 

[Shiraz]

The way it works is if you shoot a perfect score, with all Xs, you keep shooting until you miss an X. The purpose behind that is that if you have another similar situation, the person with the most Xs keeps the record. In this case, it was 6 more Xs beyond the 20 before the guy put one in the 10 ring. Besides that was his last round that he had with him (it was junker blow off round).

By the way, that 150 - 15x at 300 yards is actually 17xs.

Third person? Wasn't it you?

Yes, it was , the 150 - 17X is also mine

 

[4xforfun]

4xforfun, what caliber are you planning to shoot at the F-Class Nationals?

Well...good question. I would like to be able to switch guns/bbls, but it sounds like there would be some sort of penalty for doing so. The reason is that I don't have any of my current 1k tubes that have 400 pieces of brass for them. I do have 400 pieces of dasher brass, but the bbls are both getting long in the tooth. If I shoot a full 1k season they may be shot out.

I do have several 300 WBY tubes that have fairly low round counts and have plenty of brass. I don't shoot the WBY tubes too much any more in 1K. The problem is getting bullets. They love the 230's and 215 Hybirds and the 210 vld's, but I am down to a couple of hundred of each. What I do have lots of is the 200 grain Hybirds. Both of the tubes are 11 twist's, so they would be a perfect fit.

So, either a long in the tooth dasher or a 300 WBY with the 200 grain Hybirds.
The good thing a bout the 300 is that I am able to weigh it up to 22 pounds and the stock is a little more comforatable shooting prone.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I guess I was one of the harpooners. I did not mean to come of as "elitist" I am probably on of the poorest guys trying to shoot br in the country ;D. Since we were comparing f-class to long range Br and the statement was made that there are .5 moa groups being shot I just wanted to see those 600 or 1000 yd .5 moa targets, regardless of score. I would seriously be impressed by a 20 shot 5" group at 1k.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

ShootDots, that is a totally different argument that has nothing to do with this thread. But nonetheless, you should be clubbed to death because of it.

I'll bring the club and just to make sure we inflict maximum damage efficiently, it will be a crowbar; I bet we can make a <.5 MOA group on Ben.

 

[ShootDots]

I'll bring the club and just to make sure we inflict maximum damage efficiently, it will be a crowbar; I bet we can make a <.5 MOA group on Ben.

Now THAT was funny!!! hehehehe.... Good one Denys!! Touche!!

 

[Lbart]

snip/snip Now, why do we not make F-Open targets at 3/4 M.O.A. and that would make it ALMOST AS DIFFICULT to get to the "Long Range / High Master" classification as it is for F-T/R guys to make it at 1 M.O.A.? I know all the "logistical arguments" about yet another target to keep track of etc..etc.. I just think it would make us F-Open guys have to "go the extra mile" to get us that title, just like the T/R guys have to REALLY make strides to get there!!

Shooting Dots -
Classifications are meaningless except for the fact they give people a chance to take something home from a match other than what they would if there were no classes. It spreads the wealth. The same can be said for records, particularly records for a single string of fire.

The only winner in a match is the person who won. So, the only winners in an FC match are the FO & F/TR high scorers. No one is comparing the scores of FO against F/TR. There is no need to change targets. When I go to a match I am not shooting for high HM or High Grand Senior. I am there to win. If I lose, so be it. But I tried as hard as I could.

Should the classification percentages be changed? Probably. Should FO & F/TR have separate classification cards? Maybe, but the NRA would have a fit.

 

[ShootDots]

Hey Larry, now changing the classification percentages had not occurred to me! That, my friend, IS the correct answer! It would accomplish the same task w/o adding the burden of the obvious logistical problems!! That is the right way to go!! I take my comment back about "getting people to think"!!

 

[Lbart]

F-Open and LR BR share many similarities, especially in equipment, but the context in which they are used are completely different.
Different enough to make valid comparisons difficult and dismissive/dogmatic comments foolhardy.
I don't think an accomplished F-Open shooter could go to his first LR BR tournament of sufficient competition and win. Nor do I think the inverse is likely.
Could either be competitive? maybe.
Could either have fun? certainly. 'sposed to be fun, isn't it?
-nosualc

Good comments nosuic !

4xforfun - can you be competitive? Yes, at least equipment wise. I shot part of the 2014 Berger SWN's paired with Lou Murdica who is one heck of a short & LR BR shooter. Lou did quite well but he finished just out of the top 20. Lou admits he has a lot to learn about F-Class and I am sure he will not quit until he does finish on top.

It is not the equipment you have to worry about, but the ability to stay up with the wind and other conditions during the match. Are you prepared to lay down on the firing line with the wind blowing dirt in your action or while it is raining cats and dogs? Can you fire 2 sighters and pick out which of the the changing conditions you want to fire the next 20 in? Or better yet can you stay up with those changing conditions as the match progresses and the time runs short.

Every shooting discipline has its own nuances which have to be learned. Some learn these differences quickly some not so quick. Eric Stecker almost won the F/TR division at the SWN's, coming in 2nd. As Lou told me Eric is a natural shooter, he picks up things very quickly.

 

[johara1]

Larry, I did lay on the line and you don't have sighter the first one better be there. You better have the wind right and the elevation. When you had sighters it was easy…….. jim

 

[4xforfun]

F-Open and LR BR share many similarities, especially in equipment, but the context in which they are used are completely different.
Different enough to make valid comparisons difficult and dismissive/dogmatic comments foolhardy.
I don't think an accomplished F-Open shooter could go to his first LR BR tournament of sufficient competition and win. Nor do I think the inverse is likely.
Could either be competitive? maybe.
Could either have fun? certainly. 'sposed to be fun, isn't it?
-nosualc

Good comments nosuic !

4xforfun - can you be competitive? Yes, at least equipment wise. I shot part of the 2014 Berger SWN's paired with Lou Murdica who is one heck of a short & LR BR shooter. Lou did quite well but he finished just out of the top 20. Lou admits he has a lot to learn about F-Class and I am sure he will not quit until he does finish on top.

It is not the equipment you have to worry about, but the ability to stay up with the wind and other conditions during the match. Are you prepared to lay down on the firing line with the wind blowing dirt in your action or while it is raining cats and dogs? Can you fire 2 sighters and pick out which of the the changing conditions you want to fire the next 20 in? Or better yet can you stay up with those changing conditions as the match progresses and the time runs short.

Every shooting discipline has its own nuances which have to be learned. Some learn these differences quickly some not so quick. Eric Stecker almost won the F/TR division at the SWN's, coming in 2nd. As Lou told me Eric is a natural shooter, he picks up things very quickly.

We won't have any of those rain/wind/dust/ mirage problems that week....I checked!!!!!!

 

[effendude]

Two pages of comments, many of which are from members who don't understand the word nearly. My point is that the top scores shot in F-Class are nearly .5MOA (centered in the X-ring) for 20 shots. These shots are shot, under a time limit, without interruption or extra sighters and include the extra time needed for pit service which causes variable conditions.

Please, if you don't understand how a shooter can shoot a 200-26X, research the rules before you question the score and look silly, it hurts your credibility.

I am not saying F-Class is harder than LR BR, that would be blasphemy here. My intent is to show that both disciplines are doing everything possible to get the absolute accuracy out of their equipment. We even do steps that may not be verifiable on their own, but we do them because accuracy is the sum of many small, often immeasurable things. Any serious shooter who is attempting to be competitive wouldn't settle for less than the most accurate equipment that can be had. This might hurt, but the human factor is often the limiting factor in every discipline.

Again, can't we all respect each other's discipline and stop the bashing? They have way more in common than they have differences.

Scott

 

[johara1]

Scott, Are the groups smaller and more centered on the ranges that use electronic scoring rather than pulling the targets? ……… jim

 

[4xforfun]

My intent is to show that both disciplines are doing everything possible to get the absolute accuracy out of their equipment.
Scott

I take seven individual, precise accuracy steps during brass prep for my match brass...only four of which actually help accuracy. The problem......I don't know which four!! ;D

 

[4xforfun]

These scores are really even more impressive than is apparent on the surface. The target X-rings are not 0.5 MOA, they are actually smaller...~0.45 MOA for 300 yd, and ~0.48 MOA for all others. That may seem like splitting hairs except that it translates to 10% less total area within the X-ring at 1000 yd as compared to a true 0.5 MOA X-ring. No matter how you slice it, those record scores are some mighty fine shooting, mighty fine!

True, but your bullet hole can be 99% OUTSIDE the x ring and still count, making the actual scoring ring slightly bigger than .5 moa.. How is that for splitting hairs?? ;D

 

[Kodiak99317]

ok more food for thought, you want to make HM, shoot in matches with only high string counts in calm ranges and stay on the 10x vs 5V system. Guess you will stay away from Rattlesnake Mtn then due to the winds

Based on the 10x target with 5" x ring at 1000 yds
7 for score and you drop 3 points = 67/70 = 95.7%
10 for score and you drop 3 points = 97/100 = 97%
15 for score and you drop 3 points = 147/150 = 98%
20 for score and you drop 3 points = 197/200 = 98.5%

Based on the 5v target with 5" v ring at 1000 yds
7 for score and you drop 3 points = 32/35 = 91.4%
10 for score and you drop 3 points = 47/50 = 94%
15 for score and you drop 3 points = 72/75 = 96%
20 for score and you drop 3 points = 97/100 = 97%

 

[Jay Christopherson]

ok more food for thought, you want to make HM, shoot in matches with only high string counts in calm ranges and stay on the 10x vs 5V system. Guess you will stay away from Rattlesnake Mtn then due to the winds

Based on the 10x target
7 for score and you drop 3 points = 67/70 = 95.7%
10 for score and you drop 3 points = 97/100 = 97%
15 for score and you drop 3 points = 147/150 = 98%
20 for score and you drop 3 points = 197/200 = 98.5%

Based on the 5v target
7 for score and you drop 3 points = 32/35 = 91.4%
10 for score and you drop 3 points = 47/50 = 94%
15 for score and you drop 3 points = 72/75 = 96%
20 for score and you drop 3 points = 97/100 = 97%

Rattlesnake is an excellent range for learning to shoot in tough conditions. Not so much for padding your LR classification...

 

[Erud]

Are the 5V targets still in use anywhere in the US?

 

[Kodiak99317]

Only in the ICFRA World FClass Championship which occurs every four years and it was in USA in 2013 but that does not count to your NRA classification. It is Canada in 2017 and they use 5V targets as does most of the commonwealth and I bet it will be pairs fire with the 45 second rule, not string fire with an overall time limit.

Regarding the 1/2 moa thing, yes the WINNING shooter in LRBR usually fires under 1/2 moa, but there are lots on BIGGER groups shot too and the BR gang machine guns them down range in 7-10 seconds and as long as they are on paper, they count. FClass is much slower fire and for center. Both sports require lots of case prep to win IMO. I have shot both BR and LR FClass.

 

[BigDMT]

World records are groups that occurred ONE time. These are not groups that these F-Class guys are going out and shooting every match.

1/2 MOA or less groups are pretty commonplace for long range BR shooters.