Creed crises

[JBT47]

The problem is that small primer. Its to small for that slow powder and that large a case. The 6.5x47 is as big as you can go with powders that slow. Switch to something faster and next time maybe get a 6x47 instead or BR based 6mm instead.

Grim, I guess all the FTR shooters using the small primer .308 brass are having to live with fliers.

 

[rardoin]

I have shot 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor in reformed large primer .308 and .308 Palma brass as well as Lapua sp 6.5 Creedmoor and necked down to 6 Creedmoor. I have had no problems getting great grouping from either case on a consistent basis. A SR primer will do just fine with H4350 and RL-16. I respectfully disagree with Grimstod's statement concerning small primers in a case capacity the volume of the Creedmoor. In addition, I can't say I saw any distinct advantage over large primers either.

 

[Milo 2.0]

The problem is that small primer. Its to small for that slow powder and that large a case. The 6.5x47 is as big as you can go with powders that slow. Switch to something faster and next time maybe get a 6x47 instead or BR based 6mm instead.

I really have to disagree here, how do you figure H4350 is too slow of a powder here? I understand your theory on the small primer-flash hole, but it's working for 99% of guys shooting it.

 

[Grimstod]

Grim, I guess all the FTR shooters using the small primer .308 brass are having to live with fliers.

308 uses a faster powder. Burn rates and ignition sequence is shorter and would not factor so that is totally irrelevant.

 

[Grimstod]

I really have to disagree here, how do you figure H4350 is too slow of a powder here? I understand your theory on the small primer-flash hole, but it's working for 99% of guys shooting it.

Sometimes though you get a lot of primers that has a smaller bang, your really just risking it. Like I said we are playing with the limit and it wont hurt every one but somes it will. Its like putting the spark plug from your weed whacker into a V8 6.4L. is it going to run? For 99% of the time, but really do you want to do that? Slower powders are much harder to ignite consistently. Brian Litze proved this in his book with testing that smaller primers with slower powders created greater SDs. Also Louis Palmisano and Ferris Pindell the designers of the 6PPC demonstrated that you could not reliably ignite a powder column longer then 1.5in. The creedmoor being 1.6in long while the 47 is 1.5in. So unless you guys think your are better experts then these guys, I am out.

I am not biased really. When I first saw that Lapua was making the small primer version of Creedmoor I was totally Gung Ho about it and was even going to build some rifles on it. Then the testing showed not so good results. So I abandoned that idea. Its a nice idea but it should have been tested first.

 

[Grimstod]

By the way if CCI or Federal started making some Ultra Magnum Small rifle primers it would be a huge game changer. Ahhh wishful thinking here.

 

[Milo 2.0]

Sometimes though you get a lot of primers that has a smaller bang, your really just risking it. Like I said we are playing with the limit and it wont hurt every one but somes it will. Its like putting the spark plug from your weed whacker into a V8 6.4L. is it going to run? For 99% of the time, but really do you want to do that? Slower powders are much harder to ignite consistently. Brian Litze proved this in his book with testing that smaller primers with slower powders created greater SDs. Also Louis Palmisano and Ferris Pindell the designers of the 6PPC demonstrated that you could not reliably ignite a powder column longer then 1.5in. The creedmoor being 1.6in long while the 47 is 1.5in. So unless you guys think your are better experts then these guys, I am out.

I am not biased really. When I first saw that Lapua was making the small primer version of Creedmoor I was totally Gung Ho about it and was even going to build some rifles on it. Then the testing showed not so good results. So I abandoned that idea. Its a nice idea but it should have been tested first.

Well, you're good at name dropping, bunch of us run 6 creeds here, from RL16, 26, to Norma MRP< even slower. Run 205M's, CCI 450 proved to be terrible, no clue as to why but suspect the small flashole, no proof to back my statement up.
I just go off what works, and for now, things are fine in Miloville. Carry on.

 

[Tommie]

The problem is that small primer. Its to small for that slow powder and that large a case. The 6.5x47 is as big as you can go with powders that slow. Switch to something faster and next time maybe get a 6x47 instead or BR based 6mm instead.

I was thinking the same thing. That’s a bunch of H4350 for a small primer. Be interested to know velocity differences and/or ES.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I was thinking the same thing. That’s a bunch of H4350 for a small primer. Be interested to know velocity differences and/or ES.

There's a bunch of decent large primer brass on the market, Peterson, alpha, starline, etc, test would be easy. This is the first I've heard this surface.
I'd punch my flasholes bigger before I abandoned the small primer.

 

[Pigdog]

id like to hear more on this I use 40g H4350 in my 6.5x47L which shoots fine, is the issue here that he is using roughly 40g of H4350 for the 6mm bore size?? as it seems he is only using the same amount of H4350 that most using the 6.5x47L do with small primers. What if I was to run H4831SC in the 6.5x47L would this then run into the same issue with the small primer??

 

[Frankr]

Well, you're good at name dropping, bunch of us run 6 creeds here, from RL16, 26, to Norma MRP< even slower. Run 205M's, CCI 450 proved to be terrible, no clue as to why but suspect the small flashole, no proof to back my statement up.
I just go off what works, and for now, things are fine in Miloville. Carry on.

I would ask what happened to the CCI 450's ? did they change something ? The CCI 450 has always been the primer of choice for the 6BR with the .060 flash hole since before there were 1-8 twist barrels. By far the best small rifle primer ever available to the hand loader. I have used them to lite 43.0 grs of RL17 in a small primer 6.5 creed brass below zero. So no i have never had a issue with a small rifle primer as long as it was a CCI 450. So did they change them?
But yes i agree that a heavy dose of certain slow powders could be a problem. Like i do not believe you will get good ignition on RL26 with a small primer. My experience. yours may differ slightly or vary from mine due to geographical location.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I would ask what happened to the CCI 450's ? did they change something ? The CCI 450 has always been the primer of choice for the 6BR with the .060 flash hole since before there were 1-8 twist barrels. By far the best small rifle primer ever available to the hand loader. I have used them to lite 43.0 grs of RL17 in a small primer 6.5 creed brass below zero. So no i have never had a issue with a small rifle primer as long as it was a CCI 450. So did they change them?
But yes i agree that a heavy dose of certain slow powders could be a problem. Like i do not believe you will get good ignition on RL26 with a small primer. My experience. yours may differ slightly or vary from mine due to geographical location.

I doubt anything has changed with the 450, I understand they've been the choice of many.
My experience with 450's has not been as favorable as most, I love them with ball powders in 223 and that's it.
When I develop a load, which I've done for over 9yrs, my first 50 shots or more from a new gun are run over a chrono. And never in a x47 case, or the creed has the 450's numbers matched that of a 205M. I'm looking for tighter numbers or a range of tight numbers to develop from.
Quite a number of shooters in this area are running RL26 with small primers in 6 creed, I can't vouch for the accuracy on all but one gun, just know it's being done.
We all have different approaches to things, and I was not badmouthing the 450, just said it hasn't been my choice.
Edit: I actually feel the 450 combined with 2 powders I tried in 6 creed, slower than H4350, I was getting minor hangfires<uneven burn by anyone's standards, it goes away getting away from the magnum primer.

 

[Curious]

Have a 6 creed thats given us the fits!
Small rifle primer 39.5 h4350
115 dtacs get 4 shot 1 hole groups then outta the 5 one will go bizerk to like 1" moa
Krieger 7.5 twist on a tika with a krg chassie.

To me is sounds as simple as a poor load, something just isn't quite right.

The small primer issue might be correct with H4350 but equally you might just be skirting around the edge of a node. The only way you will really know about the primer issue is to try developing a load with a different powder thats a bit faster. As for not being in the middle of the node, try 0.1gr increments either side.

Ive had loads like this, I call them heartbreakers

 

[wildchild]

To me is sounds as simple as a poor load, something just isn't quite right.

The small primer issue might be correct with H4350 but equally you might just be skirting around the edge of a node. The only way you will really know about the primer issue is to try developing a load with a different powder thats a bit faster. As for not being in the middle of the node, try 0.1gr increments either side.

Ive had loads like this, I call them heartbreakers

Rl23 wirh dtacs goin 3040 put 4 in the .1's for group and 1 an 3/4" low.
3 differant powders and 4 differant bullets when tuned are similiar. Gotta try annealing brass now.

 

[Beeman]

I’m interested about the CCI 450 primer ignition problems. I’m in Canada and do most of my shooting in winter because that’s when I have time. Never had a miss fire or poor ignition out of my 6.5x47 with 42.2 gr H4350 and CCI 450’s, 130 Berger. Have shot in -20 to -30C.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I’m interested about the CCI 450 primer ignition problems. I’m in Canada and do most of my shooting in winter because that’s when I have time. Never had a miss fire or poor ignition out of my 6.5x47 with 42.2 gr H4350 and CCI 450’s, 130 Berger. Have shot in -20 to -30C.

I re-read the whole thread and cannot find where anyone said the 450 has ignition issues. The discussion turned into whether 6 creed brass with a small primer pocket and small flashole were an optimum mate.

 

[Frankr]

Edit: I actually feel the 450 combined with 2 powders I tried in 6 creed, slower than H4350, I was getting minor hangfires<uneven burn by anyone's standards, it goes away getting away from the magnum primer.

This is what sparked my attention. As i have stated I feel in all my shooting and i was turned onto the 6BR when and i have owned many 14 twist were the norm and 1-8 twist were like what? I was told the secret is the CCI 450 primer i would guess some 20+ years ago and i have been shooting them ever since. I have shot cases of 205M in a 6PPC and BR4's, rem 7 1/2 ect but i feel there is no better than that 450..If you ever see the flame front from a 450 you would know why. It's like a torch..Pictures in the Bench rest Shooting Primer book. I have used them and they have been the best,most consistent primer i have ever used.But i did here that there may have been some bad batches out there i guess after the shortage and all that BS kind of stuff. I feel you can tune a good group on any primer but you will never
have the consistency of that 450 due to it's torch flame front. That why i think you had hang fires with a 450 you got some bad primers or you have a firing pin problem with your rifle. them 205M's will take i light hit and still go off that 450 needs a good hit due to it's thick cup.

 

[Frankr]

As far as the OP question i would chrony them loads and see what the velocity does on the shot that's off. if it slower or faster i would look to neck tension first. seating alignment and depth next. then rifle problems before i suspected primer ignition trouble. My 2 cents.

 

[Milo 2.0]

This is what sparked my attention. As i have stated I feel in all my shooting and i was turned onto the 6BR when and i have owned many 14 twist were the norm and 1-8 twist were like what? I was told the secret is the CCI 450 primer i would guess some 20+ years ago and i have been shooting them ever since. I have shot cases of 205M in a 6PPC and BR4's, rem 7 1/2 ect but i feel there is no better than that 450..If you ever see the flame front from a 450 you would know why. It's like a torch..Pictures in the Bench rest Shooting Primer book. I have used them and they have been the best,most consistent primer i have ever used.But i did here that there may have been some bad batches out there i guess after the shortage and all that BS kind of stuff. I feel you can tune a good group on any primer but you will never
have the consistency of that 450 due to it's torch flame front. That why i think you had hang fires with a 450 you got some bad primers or you have a firing pin problem with your rifle. them 205M's will take i light hit and still go off that 450 needs a good hit due to it's thick cup.

My primers were bought pre-crisis, probably 2010, all test guns were new Defiance actions. I'm banking on something else going on, I have a theory, no proof on it, so I'll keep it to myself.
Today it's a moot point, the 4 in my circle are running 205M, RL 16 powder, 110 Sierra's and are liking the results, small primer Lapua brass.

 

[Frankr]

ok