Copper fouling

[Hoot]

Everyone has their pet regimen. I normally clean with Kroil after every range visit and I leave my bore wet with it. Not dripping out obviously. The next time I go to the range, I patch it dry before I shoot. The intervals are not so infrequent that I worry about it drying in place. When the throws of winter descend upon us in November, I patch the Kroil out and wet patch with Eezox for "a long winter's nap."

Hoot

 

[EdHarley]

Sounds good.

 

[moondog]

Yes sir, but they almost always foul worse initially and as you know, every barrel is different. The trick is to try and keep as much copper out of the bore while trying to get it shot in. If there is copper smeared all in the bore then continuing to pass more bullets over top of said copper wont really help the "break in" cause. Ten rounds down a whistle clean bore will do way more than 150 down one that is caked up with copper when it comes to breaking one in.
The other thing is, and I have never figured this one out, that while it most likely is the new bore needing to be "shot in", it can also be the jacket material itself. I have had a few barrels that fouled the typical amount and then stopped as expected, only to copper foul pretty badly at a later time. Scrub it all out and see no more fouling. I have to blame the bullets on this one, I cant see a barrel flip flopping back and forth.

Agree on the jacket material. When I was shooting a 7SAUM, 162 Hornady bullets shot
pretty good but, copper fouled horribly.
No problem with Bergers. Also, in my limited experience, pushing bullets over 3100 has almost always caused more copper issues.

 

[Texas10]

Use some foam bore cleaner to remove the copper without any brushing and excessive cleaning rod time.

Below I give a old milsurp rifle with a frosted bore one shot of foam bore cleaner and let it sit overnight muzzle down.

Below a AR15 rifle and foam bore cleaner and one shot of foam bore cleaner. The only time a cleaning rod was used was to push some patches down the bore to remove the foam bore cleaner.

The blue on the patch is copper and the black is carbon and no brushing.

Below is a borescope photo of a brand new Savage buttoned rifled barrel. This type of barrel will eat bore brushes and give you false copper readings. And in my opinion, giving the bore one shot of foam bore cleaner and calling it good enough is all that is needed.

Amazing photos, ED.

That last one of a new Savage barrel is illustrative of vast difference between a factory button rifled bore, looking more like a broaching bar than a rifle barrel, and a quality aftermarket barrel. My model 12BVSS when new shot like crap until I got 8 or 10 rounds worth of copper filling in the gaps between the railroad tracks in the bore. I didn't have a borescope back then, so I couldn't inspect after cleaning, but those days are long gone. Now I inspect everything and the foaming bore cleaner really does the job well. I follow that with Ed's Red until the Teslong says it's good to go and finish with an oiled patch.

Having the Teslong borescope camera has made all the difference.

 

[spudgun]

Amazing photos, ED.

That last one of a new Savage barrel is illustrative of vast difference between a factory button rifled bore, looking more like a broaching bar than a rifle barrel, and a quality aftermarket barrel. My model 12BVSS when new shot like crap until I got 8 or 10 rounds worth of copper filling in the gaps between the railroad tracks in the bore. I didn't have a borescope back then, so I couldn't inspect after cleaning, but those days are long gone. Now I inspect everything and the foaming bore cleaner really does the job well. I follow that with Ed's Red until the Teslong says it's good to go and finish with an oiled patch.

Having the Teslong borescope camera has made all the difference.

My first Savage 12 F/V loved to shoot dirty. Made the mistake one day of really cleaning the barrel to get rid of the copper. My next visit to the 600 yd range I could not hit steel until I shot 13 rounds and then my .5MOA groups came back. Didn't clean it again untill my groups started to go bad... Some guns like to be dirty... You just got to figure it out.

 

[Ccrider]

@Uncle Ed, are those chatter marks in the last picture?

 

[Uncle Ed]

@Uncle Ed, are those chatter marks in the last picture?

I read they were chatter marks but Boyd Allen in this forum said it happened when the barrel was drilled. Boyd said you can see they have been flattened in the grooves when the button was pulled through the barrel.

Either way, I let the foam bore cleaner remove the copper and not spend hours trying to remove it with cleaning rod methods. "Spare the rod and spoil the bore."

If you Google the subject and look under images you will see some ugly barrels with worse looking bores not made by Savage.

Below fire lapping to remove some of the "speed bumps".

Below on the left shows what Boyd Allen stated with the marks flattened in the grooves and on the right a smooth rifling method.

 

[Uncle Ed]

 

[Hoot]

With all due respect, he looked down the first 1/4 of the bore past the chamber, not the entire bore. I'm sure everyone's experience is different but my bores tend to copper up the most in the last 1/4. I'm sure his entire bore was as nice as that first 1/4 but seeing would make for better believing.

just sayin' ...

Hoot

 

[Uncle Ed]

With all due respect, he looked down the first 1/4 of the bore past the chamber, not the entire bore. I'm sure everyone's experience is different but my bores tend to copper up the most in the last 1/4. I'm sure his entire bore was as nice as that first 1/4 but seeing would make for better believing.

just sayin' ...

Hoot

I put the video in the posting to show another viewpoint of using foam bore cleaner. And it came from the Daily Bulletin on the main page of this website.

Bottom line, it is an effortless method for removing copper and carbon and does no harm to the bore.

Smart Advice on Barrel Cleaning — Best Techniques and Products
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...barrel-cleaning-best-techniques-and-products/

"This article comes from the Criterion Barrels website. It provides good, conservative advice about barrel cleaning. Understand that cleaning methods may need to be adapted to fit the amount and type of fouling (and the particular barrel). In general, we do try to minimize brushing, and we follow the procedures Criterion recommends respecting the crown/muzzle. We have also had very good success using wet patches followed by Wipe-Out bore foam. Along with the practices outlined by Criterion below, you may want to try Wipe-Out foam. Just be sure to use a fitted cleaning rod bore guide, to keep foam out of the action recesses and trigger assembly."

 

[Bobcat]

Couple questions.

New Barrel, 6.5 Creedmoor.

Broke the barrel in with 30 rounds. Shoot clean, shoot clean etc...

Getting great groups with my reloads.

Notice heavy copper fouling at the last 2" of the barrel.

I have cleaned with hoppe's copper remover and can get about 90% of the copper but keeps coming back.

The question I have is what is your thoughts on using a brass brush on the bore to remove the copper?

What could cause this to quickly Copper up at the end of the bore?

Load Data: 140 Gr Hornandy HPBT Match, 2670 - 2700 FPS.

Cut off the last 2 inches.

 

[David Milisock]

Cut off the last 2 inches.

How long is the barrel? What twist?

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm no expert in bore technology but I'd imagine that the heat generated by the friction of the bullet racing down the bore makes it get hotter as it progresses. I am very familiar with copper as a metal however and it certainly gets softer as it gets hotter. Softer copper rubs off easier. Add to that, if the barrel is lapped using conventional methods, the lapping slurry tends to get less aggressive the further down the barrel it progresses from the breech, removing less steel. That's actually a desirable property in 22 caliber BR barrels. They choke down slightly as you near the muzzle, which improves accuracy. I too have seen the buildup get worse, the closer to the muzzle in my 6mm XC barrel, having gotten it after I got a borescope. It now has about 300 rounds through it and the rate of buildup from shooting nude bullets has not gotten much better, despite it having been lapped at the manufacturer. Its pretty smooth compared to some barrels I've gotten, that claim to have been lapped. So the heat factor may be a greater contributor. Lately, I've taken to shooting bullets in it that have been tumble plated with HBN. Using MoS2 or WS2 has the same effect. Switching to plated bullets stopped the copper buildup instantly. I have not seen the use of a bronze bore brush when cleaning, have a significant impact upon removing thicker copper buildup. It definitely knocks out the carbon buildup however, with just a few a passes, using a good solvent. While a few patches of KG-12 copper remover, after patching out any other chemical you were using to clean the bore, with a strong degreaser like trichlorethylene, knocks out the lesser copper buildup, it doesn't get the thick streaks out near the muzzle. That takes some elbow grease using JB compound diluted with Kroil. That definitely get the bore down to just the steel. That's what I did prior to switching to HBN plated bullets. No more copper. From my own experience, it takes more than 20 rounds to break in most barrels, unless you're using Tubb Final Finish or Neco Bore Treatment abrasive type bullets. While I don't use those, I've read that they get the job done faster. As always, YMMV.

Hoot

Copper ends up in the end of the barrel because it is torn from the jacket in the throat and it's atomized at the end of the barrel. It has nothing to do with lapping. As the throat erodes the bullet is torn more aggressively and the barrel coppers at the end of the barrel but it's not actually coppering at the end of the barrel it's coppering at the beginning of the barrel and the atomization is realized in the AFT end of the barrel

 

[ebb]

Keep shooting some take longer to break in tha. Others. Don't use abrasives, round count will get you wgere you need to be. Just be patient.