Copper fouling

[std7mag]

I'm sure to be blasted here, but here goes.

You say it shoots great with the copper there.
Why worry about taking it out?
Your just gonna have to put it back with a couple of fouler shots anyways.

Clean the carbon, don't stress about a little copper. It only helps you.

 

[Bob3700]

I’m certainly not a chemist... but the combination of these two fluids sounds like the making of an etching compound... using it first on an old barrel is a really good idea!

The combination of higher strength ammonia and hydrogen peroxide used to be called “ Blue Goop”. It was a copper solvent several times stronger than Sweets.
It will aggressively remove copper but also effect bbl steel if left in the bore too long. The bench rest crowd of years past recommended no longer than 15 min.
U can research old issues of Precision Shooting and find this info.

 

[T.Rhodes]

I don't mean butt-in or hijack the thread, but I have a copper fouling question. This is on a new Bergara 6.5CM - first break in shots yesterday. I did the recommended 5-shot, shoot-clean-shoot sequence and 10 shot regimen. After the last cleaning I saw small copper shreds on the patch. The long lines on the patch in the attached photo are the tiny copper shreds. I have never seen this before.

The load was 41.5gr of RL-16 with a 140gr Hornady ELD.

I would appreciate some comments/advice.

 

[Hoot]

Is that Bergara a controlled round feed action? I was thinking that those shreds look like the the bullet might be catching the lip of the chamber on their way in if they're going in with an uptilt. I've seen all kings of brass shards but never copper ones like that. Some magazines ship with incredibly powerful springs in them which try their darnedest to make the rounds feed with a little uptilt. Otherwise, I'd be scoping that bore.

BTW: From the Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

Hoot

 

[T.Rhodes]

In this case all rounds were fed individually - not magazine fed. So should not have had any interference with chamber.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I would contact Bergara as soon as possible. They may want to inspect and replace that rifle.

 

[msinc]

......Broke the barrel in with 30 rounds........

You sure about that???? 30 rounds....."broke the barrel in", yet it still fouls with copper. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say thirty rounds didn't quite have the effect you are believing it should of had.
Some barrels will slow way down fouling but always copper some, many will quit once they are really broke in. I have had several barrels that took over 100 rounds to stop. One in particular took a little over 200.
They all shot fine, but groups shrunk a little as they got good and shot in.
The one that took 200, I can put 9 or 10 shots touching at 100 yards. I was very close to giving up on it early on. Wilson barrels have always performed very good for me. I have never had one that required much break in. That is to say none took 100 rounds, but few took 30 or less. Best of luck shooting sir!!!!

 

[T.Rhodes]

You sure about that???? 30 rounds....."broke the barrel in", yet it still fouls with copper. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say thirty rounds didn't quite have the effect you are believing it should of had.
Some barrels will slow way down fouling but always copper some, many will quit once they are really broke in. I have had several barrels that took over 100 rounds to stop. One in particular took a little over 200.
They all shot fine, but groups shrunk a little as they got good and shot in.
The one that took 200, I can put 9 or 10 shots touching at 100 yards. I was very close to giving up on it early on. Wilson barrels have always performed very good for me. I have never had one that required much break in. That is to say none took 100 rounds, but few took 30 or less. Best of luck shooting sir!!!!

Let me clarify. The Bergara break-in calls for the first 5 rounds; shoot-clean-shoot. Then clean after every 10 rounds until a total of 50 rounds shot. Then clean after each range session. That's what I was doing yesterday. I did not complete their break-in sequence as listed. Only 30 rounds shot yesterday.

I realize it may many more to get the barrel really broken in and 'fire-lapped'.

As far as being a shooter, I'm hopeful. On all these break-in shots, sub MOA groups; at 100yards, 300 yards, (I had a .38 MOA 3-shot group), and a .8 MOA 600 3-shot group yesterday.

The cooper shreds are what I'm concerned with. As @McGraw said above, this may need to get Bergara involved.

 

[spudgun]

You sure about that???? 30 rounds....."broke the barrel in", yet it still fouls with copper. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say thirty rounds didn't quite have the effect you are believing it should of had.
Some barrels will slow way down fouling but always copper some, many will quit once they are really broke in. I have had several barrels that took over 100 rounds to stop. One in particular took a little over 200.
They all shot fine, but groups shrunk a little as they got good and shot in.
The one that took 200, I can put 9 or 10 shots touching at 100 yards. I was very close to giving up on it early on. Wilson barrels have always performed very good for me. I have never had one that required much break in. That is to say none took 100 rounds, but few took 30 or less. Best of luck shooting sir!!!!

I guess I mis-stated the 30 round break-in. It was the first 30 rounds that I shot down the barrel and noticed the copper fouling.

This is my 2nd Wilson barrel, built a 6mm Creedmoor and shoots 3" groups at 600 yds. I didn't remember the barrel fouling so quickly as the 6.5 CM barrel.

 

[spudgun]

I'm sure to be blasted here, but here goes.

You say it shoots great with the copper there.
Why worry about taking it out?
Your just gonna have to put it back with a couple of fouler shots anyways.

Clean the carbon, don't stress about a little copper. It only helps you.

This is a replacement barrel for one that I shot out on the Savage 12 F/V. That barrel shot the best when I did not clean it between matches. After 3 years the groups at 600 started to go from .5 MOA to over 1 MOA. Time to re-barrel.

I wasn't that concerned with the copper fouling but only wanted some opinions on why it formed so quickly.

My thoughts were really sharp edges on the rifling of possible uneven bore diameter from chamber to muzzle.

 

[msinc]

Let me clarify. The Bergara break-in calls for the first 5 rounds; shoot-clean-shoot. Then clean after every 10 rounds until a total of 50 rounds shot. Then clean after each range session. That's what I was doing yesterday. I did not complete their break-in sequence as listed. Only 30 rounds shot yesterday.

I realize it may many more to get the barrel really broken in and 'fire-lapped'.

As far as being a shooter, I'm hopeful. On all these break-in shots, sub MOA groups; at 100yards, 300 yards, (I had a .38 MOA 3-shot group), and a .8 MOA 600 3-shot group yesterday.

The cooper shreds are what I'm concerned with. As @McGraw said above, this may need to get Bergara involved.

I understand. I would say that if you are shooting .380" groups with some of the first rounds out of the pipe I would not let that barrel out of my sight, let alone send it back to the manufacturer.
They will just replace it with another one that, while it probably wont generate copper slivers, it may not shoot those groups either. Suggest you don't loose sight of the ball....as tough as it is to find barrels that group like this I'd a lot rather have the one that shoots .380" and kicks out a few slivers than one that don't foul at all, don't make slivers, but shoots .500" any day!!
I think I would take it to someone with a good borescope and give it a good look over. If nothing drastic I'd keep on gettin' it.

 

[msinc]

I guess I mis-stated the 30 round break-in. It was the first 30 rounds that I shot down the barrel and noticed the copper fouling.

This is my 2nd Wilson barrel, built a 6mm Creedmoor and shoots 3" groups at 600 yds. I didn't remember the barrel fouling so quickly as the 6.5 CM barrel.

Yes sir, but they almost always foul worse initially and as you know, every barrel is different. The trick is to try and keep as much copper out of the bore while trying to get it shot in. If there is copper smeared all in the bore then continuing to pass more bullets over top of said copper wont really help the "break in" cause. Ten rounds down a whistle clean bore will do way more than 150 down one that is caked up with copper when it comes to breaking one in.
The other thing is, and I have never figured this one out, that while it most likely is the new bore needing to be "shot in", it can also be the jacket material itself. I have had a few barrels that fouled the typical amount and then stopped as expected, only to copper foul pretty badly at a later time. Scrub it all out and see no more fouling. I have to blame the bullets on this one, I cant see a barrel flip flopping back and forth.

 

[T.Rhodes]

@msinc I have to say my .38MOA group was probably a happy anomaly. But I'll take it!

 

[Uncle Ed]

Use some foam bore cleaner to remove the copper without any brushing and excessive cleaning rod time.

Below I give a old milsurp rifle with a frosted bore one shot of foam bore cleaner and let it sit overnight muzzle down.

Below a AR15 rifle and foam bore cleaner and one shot of foam bore cleaner. The only time a cleaning rod was used was to push some patches down the bore to remove the foam bore cleaner.

The blue on the patch is copper and the black is carbon and no brushing.

Below is a borescope photo of a brand new Savage buttoned rifled barrel. This type of barrel will eat bore brushes and give you false copper readings. And in my opinion, giving the bore one shot of foam bore cleaner and calling it good enough is all that is needed.

 

[Uncle Ed]

The cooper shreds are what I'm concerned with. As @McGraw said above, this may need to get Bergara involved.

Could the "copper shreds" have broken off your copper bore brush??????

 

[46and2]

Could the "copper shreds" have broken off your copper bore brush??????

They look the same length as brush bristles.

 

[Longrange57]

I don't mean butt-in or hijack the thread, but I have a copper fouling question. This is on a new Bergara 6.5CM - first break in shots yesterday. I did the recommended 5-shot, shoot-clean-shoot sequence and 10 shot regimen. After the last cleaning I saw small copper shreds on the patch. The long lines on the patch in the attached photo are the tiny copper shreds. I have never seen this before.

The load was 41.5gr of RL-16 with a 140gr Hornady ELD.

I would appreciate some comments/advice.

Do not believe this is from bullet jacket!

 

[Hohn]

I asked the same question in post #3. If it's a burr it might take some Tubbs Final Finish to smooth out.

Tubb FF worked a small miracle on my OEM savage barrel in terms of cleaning ease.

 

[Hohn]

I'm sure to be blasted here, but here goes.

You say it shoots great with the copper there.
Why worry about taking it out?
Your just gonna have to put it back with a couple of fouler shots anyways.

Clean the carbon, don't stress about a little copper. It only helps you.

Until and unless it affects accuracy, ignore the copper. I totally agree with this. The goal is good shooting, not barrel cleanliness by itself. If it shoots right, it is right.

 

[EdHarley]

I'm no expert in bore technology but I'd imagine that the heat generated by the friction of the bullet racing down the bore makes it get hotter as it progresses. I am very familiar with copper as a metal however and it certainly gets softer as it gets hotter. Softer copper rubs off easier. Add to that, if the barrel is lapped using conventional methods, the lapping slurry tends to get less aggressive the further down the barrel it progresses from the breech, removing less steel. That's actually a desirable property in 22 caliber BR barrels. They choke down slightly as you near the muzzle, which improves accuracy. I too have seen the buildup get worse, the closer to the muzzle in my 6mm XC barrel, having gotten it after I got a borescope. It now has about 300 rounds through it and the rate of buildup from shooting nude bullets has not gotten much better, despite it having been lapped at the manufacturer. Its pretty smooth compared to some barrels I've gotten, that claim to have been lapped. So the heat factor may be a greater contributor. Lately, I've taken to shooting bullets in it that have been tumble plated with HBN. Using MoS2 or WS2 has the same effect. Switching to plated bullets stopped the copper buildup instantly. I have not seen the use of a bronze bore brush when cleaning, have a significant impact upon removing thicker copper buildup. It definitely knocks out the carbon buildup however, with just a few a passes, using a good solvent. While a few patches of KG-12 copper remover, after patching out any other chemical you were using to clean the bore, with a strong degreaser like trichlorethylene, knocks out the lesser copper buildup, it doesn't get the thick streaks out near the muzzle. That takes some elbow grease using JB compound diluted with Kroil. That definitely get the bore down to just the steel. That's what I did prior to switching to HBN plated bullets. No more copper. From my own experience, it takes more than 20 rounds to break in most barrels, unless you're using Tubb Final Finish or Neco Bore Treatment abrasive type bullets. While I don't use those, I've read that they get the job done faster. As always, YMMV.

Hoot

So after you take the bore down to just steel, you recommend any particular oil or lubricant?