Copper bullets, I am over it.

[SixFive]

On speed, the TSX needs to go about 2,000 FPS or faster to work. They did come out with an LRX version that can go quite a bit slower and still open up. Most cup and core bullets and partitions are 1800 FPS. Some of the "LR" bullets are down as low as 1400 FPS.

I've had problems with the partition in the past, believe it or not. I've lost three deer in my life and two of the three were partitions. The other, a 143 gr ELD-X. The Accubond I've never had a problem with and have used them quite a bit. I'm also liking the Terminal Ascent but they are so hard to find in stock and are VERY expensive. You gotta use what you have confidence in!

I am with you on the Terminal Ascent, I personally think it is the finest bullet ever made. I stock pilled them before they got popular and have a lifetime supply. They really are just upgraded Trophy Bonded which were GREAT bullets also. Love em love em love em. Funny though as they are a HALF copper bullet! The front expands and the rear copper drives forward. I also tried that 143gr ELD-x, killed everything I shot with it but it seemed to do something different every time, I like consistency as much as possible.

 

[drop_point]

I am with you on the Terminal Ascent, I personally think it is the finest bullet ever made. I stock pilled them before they got popular and have a lifetime supply. They really are just upgrade Trophy Bonded which were GREAT bullets also. Love em love em love em.

I bought enough to last many, many years in my .270s, too. I wish I had bought the .308s.

 

[TTE]

As a P.H. for 25+ years in Tanzania. I will relay my experience with some of the bullets mentioned here.

First !
IMO .... the Swift A Frame's are the finest expanding hunting bullet on this or any other planet.

Hornady bullets are soft .... all of them. Accurate ? Yes. Will they kill ? Sure, under the correct circumstances .... but not my choice for hunting.

I don't have any experience with solid copper bullets other than Barnes.
In my experience (of clients that brought them) .... 1/2 of them work very nicely and 1/2 of them fail in a spectacular way (as to what we expect of a hunting bullet).

As mentioned previously, some punch right through.
And some violently explode.
One I vividly remember, a client wanted a life size Lesser Kudu mount. He hit the Kudu with a frontal quartering shot at 130 yards, the Kudu went straight down.
When we got up to it, a large section of the entire chest area had been ripped almost off the animal in large sections and some in tatters (I posted pics a long time ago of this on another forum and got BBQ'd by the Barnes shooters. The pics are buried in my boxes of pics, so you will just have to take my word for it. I even sent the pics to Barnes and was contacted by them).
Also, there was a large hole in front of the off side leg (grapefruit size). There was so much hide damage he decided not to have a mount at all and only took the horns.

True, not the most accurate shot, but the damage was so severe, he could not have the #1 animal of his safari mounted at all.

I believe a different 'soft' would not have caused so much damage.
He was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag.

I've been retired since 2015, so I may not be up to date on copper bullets. I just know, I am not chooseing them for my safari in June (yes, going as a client).

I don't care what bullets you shoot. Makes no difference to me anymore. If you are a Barnes fan and love them, great ! No skin off my nose.
I just hope you get the 1/2 that work nicely.

 

[msalm]

My go to bullet in the 308 is the Lapua 150gr Mega SP for deer size game. Seems to open incredibly fast along with penetrating far enough. Kills deer very rapidly, but does create some damage/bloodshot meat. In smaller calibers for my son I load light 87gr copper in his 6.5 Grendel (cut down 120gr ETip). That has worked very well for two deer so far, but they have travelled 50-60 yards and one had scant a blood trail with a chest cavity filled up w/ blood…it was a lower 1/3rd through the heart shot so there is that.

I really like the 200 AB in the 300 Ultra (pure magic) for out west on elk, and the 175 Terminal Ascent in the 300 WSM.

Overall I agree with you in ‘favoring’ better quality lead core bullets but am not at the stage I’m going to swear off ALL solid coppers.

 

[1K6BRA]

I have shot 25 or so whitetails here in Pennsylvania and New York with 80 grain 25 caliber Barns TTSX bullets. And a few with 6.5 100 grain TTXS slugs. I added four more this year two from Pennsylvania and two from New York with the 80 grain. TTSX. The picture below is from a small doe I shot last week here in Pennsylvania. Approximately 100 yard shot with my 250-3000 through the lungs on purpose so as not to destroy any meat. She might have ran 70 yards. Typical performance that I have seen over the last 15 years or so from this bullet. I did shoot a nice buck here in Pennsylvania with a 25–06 with the same bullet.(3150fs) An approximately an 80 yard shot literally through the heart. When dressing the deer out I wish I would’ve taken pictures or at least tried to. There was literally nothing but soup left of the heart, not one shred of any kind of meat from it. That Deer did go 125 yards or so before falling, which is not typical in fact, I think that’s the furthest I’ve ever had one run. My experience has been nothing but great with these bullets and I have to defend them. I have heard of others that have had issues. I don’t doubt them. I have shot many more deer with standard cup and core bullets. They certainly work. As in real estate, it’s all about location, location, location! Every time I have put one of these slugs in the right location I have instant venison shish kebabs.

 

[searcher]

INTERESTING! Thanks for sharing that, kinda supports my thinking. It also supports Hammers better performance vs Barnes.

No one wants to be told what kind of bullet they can use - including those in other countries - who's sportsmen also don't want their governments to require the use of non-lead. I very begrudgingly adapted the use of them - as I had no choice. I found that many of them shot like crap. The more I worked with certain brands (Barnes being among the best), I found that they could not only be very accurate, but that they put animals down very nicely. I've shot a lot of deer and pigs with them and have never been disappointed. I'd rather shoot lead if I were a "long range" hunter - or one who takes pokes part 500 yards, because copper offerings tend to lose stability faster and accuracy tends to fade a bit faster as a result. Within that range (+/-, depending on caliber), I'd take either one.

I try to be open minded about "experts" (even self-proclaimed experts - as the who created that report) when it comes to their opinions. I do believe (right or wrong) that he was clearly biased, providing many examples of why copper bullets are inferior and had a "higher chance" of wounding game. The guy taking those 275-yard shots at the goat with a .223 (if I am not mistaken) are almost laughable. The main issue is that if he made a well-placed shot with a more suitable cartridge at that distance (never mind the wind was clearly blowing 15+ MPH), that goat wouldn't have just stood there for a full two minutes wondering what happened. But he failed to do that at least twice - the first two shots. So that was an example of a bad bullet? Or poor marksmanship combined with tough conditions and using a minimal(?) caliber for that size of an animal?

Just trying to be subjective here. He further says they tend to be inaccurate, expensive, etc., etc. In fact, they can be just as accurate and cost not more (and in some cases less) than other leaded premium bullets. Then he says bullets that basically expand immediately and shed weight are far better, which copper bullets "don't do". Well, I'd say that also puts long-established leaders in bonded lead bullets in the dirt with copper? Then the video of the other guide who says folks don't use enough bullet to get proper penetration. I tend to agree with that - but is totally contradictory to all the guy said who made that "report". Or the picture of the guy holding the copper bullet in his hand which was recovered from the animal - talking of how long it took the animal to die. The bullet clearly mushroomed nicely (for caliber) and penetrated as far as it could (and copper known to penetrate more than lead), so why did it take "longer" for the animal to die? Another poorly placed shot expecting miracles? Myself being a guy who likes both lead and copper bullets, I think that guy who made that report up is not only biased - but is not as much the "expert" as he thinks he is - and claims to be. I just hate seeing "experts" present falsehoods as "fact" - and hoping the uninitiated take that as the gospel.

As for the "new technology" that is not yet available in America, regarding the DRT bullets, he is keenly unaware that we have had such technology in lead-free design here in the U.S for well over ten years, in the form of varmint bullets - such as Hornady NTX, Nosler lead-free Ballistic Tips and Barnes Varmint Grenades as three I can recall offhand that use sintered, compressed compounds. So - why haven't our lead-free ammo producers made them in big-game bullets? I'd go out on a limb and say one doesn't want the bullet to come apart and dump all its energy on impact - which is what that guy seems to think is ideal. If it worked so well on varmints (and they DO), my guess is we would have seen such a product already for big game. Sounds to me like this guy is hoping to be the "expert" to persuade his government to not go lead-free. For that, I don't blame him - but let's get the facts straight - otherwise one loses all credibility on what he says that is true.

 

[wv.citybilly]

The thought of wasting a good beef roast brings tears to my eyes.

I would've gone with pork shoulder myself, i.e.,

 

[Olspark]

I’m not a copper fan either from a few experiences similar to yours SixFive. However, if I’m looking at that shot placement on the buck corrected, I’m impressed that you recovered it. Is the shot in front of the leg but not high enough to hit neck bone? If so, I would not use that as an example of poor bullet performance regardless of composition. As I stated, I don’t like copper either.

 

[TTE]

No one wants to be told what kind of bullet they can use -

This is 100% accurate.

No one want to be told that their bullet .... rifle .... cartridge was the wrong choice.

Everyone wants to boast about those things and never want to hear that their choice sucked

 

[Olspark]

I have shot 25 or so whitetails here in Pennsylvania and New York with 80 grain 25 caliber Barns TTSX bullets. And a few with 6.5 100 grain TTXS slugs. I added four more this year two from Pennsylvania and two from New York with the 80 grain. TTSX. The picture below is from a small doe I shot last week here in Pennsylvania. Approximately 100 yard shot with my 250-3000 through the lungs on purpose so as not to destroy any meat. She might have ran 70 yards. Typical performance that I have seen over the last 15 years or so from this bullet. I did shoot a nice buck here in Pennsylvania with a 25–06 with the same bullet.(3150fs) An approximately an 80 yard shot literally through the heart. When dressing the deer out I wish I would’ve taken pictures or at least tried to. There was literally nothing but soup left of the heart, not one shred of any kind of meat from it. That Deer did go 125 yards or so before falling, which is not typical in fact, I think that’s the furthest I’ve ever had one run. My experience has been nothing but great with these bullets and I have to defend them. I have heard of others that have had issues. I don’t doubt them. I have shot many more deer with standard cup and core bullets. They certainly work. As in real estate, it’s all about location, location, location! Every time I have put one of these slugs in the right location I have instant venison shish kebabs.View attachment 1614538

In the past, I’ve hunted in places where if a deer ran 70 to 125 yds, someone else would have a bullet in it and claiming they killed it. To me that’s not acceptable performance. Wherever you hunt, that is acceptable. I understand.

 

[drop_point]

For guys that like shooting roasts and other groceries:

Its fun and entertaining, but really isn't indicative of how a bullet will perform on live tissue.

When we butcher our meat, we typically get rid of the hide and hair, we get rid of fascia, and we get rid of sinew, and all of the connective tissue. We separate muscle groups and all of the blood is gone from the meat before it is packaged. There is no longer a heart pumping fresh blood through arteries and veins. The effects on game are much different than nice, tasty clean meat so we should be careful not to infer too much through them.

 

[SD guy]

As a hunter I have learned to HATE solid copper bullets. I know many of you think they are wonderful but I have tried, Barnes, Hammer, and Cutting Edge and simply do not see the terminal performance good bullets create like Terminal Ascent, Bondstrike, Partition, Ballistic Tip or Accubond. Do copper bullets kill deer? Sure but honestly I can kill a deer with a 22 rimfire, that doesn't make it the right bullet.

Even non premium bullets like CoreLokt, SST, and Hot Core perform better than copper in my opinion.

I have many different calibers and have tested copper bullets on deer for three years from 6mm Creedmoor to 300Rum same inconsistent performance half of the time. I like to dump a ton of energy on Target with a strong chance of a passthrough. I am not bragging guys but most of the deer I shoot with Bondstrike or Terminal Ascent FALL OVER IN PLACE, BANG FLOP. I know, I know sometimes they just run regardless but I am telling you out of the last 7 deer shot with Bondstrike bullets they were 100% bang flops (I shoot high shoulder towards the neck). I rarely see this from copper, they do not go far but they do go unless I neck shoot them.

I truly gave solid copper a fair chance, among my many friends I have seen the inconsistency of especially Barnes. To slow doesn't open well, to fast it pin holes. I just do not have time for it and I am over it. Rant over

The final straw was last night my friend had a perfect heart lung with 130ttsx from a 30-06 about 100yards, tracked that stupid deer for an hour went over 100 yards. We skinned it out at my house and it once again was a PIN hole through and through, perfect shot but horrible expansion and complete pass through dumping little to no energy in the deer.

One note in fairness: Copper can be very destructive bullets WHEN heavy bone is hit. I will also concede solid coppers have a place in Africa.

I know all the fans of copper will chime in here with stories and pictures of devastated deer they have killed with copper, good for you, my experience is they are INCONSISTANT, do great one time and the next who knows.

I will be selling off every solid copper bullet I own shortly, I have a bunch!

I will be interested in seeing what you are wishing to liquidate. Anything in 6mm?


I have learned to like the brachial plexus shot location or other CNS shot placement since starting to use the monolithic offerings. CNS = DRT Heart lung shot = a 80 ish yard death run for me shooting the 6mm ARC. Shot placement always matters. perhaps a bit more with the Monolithic offerings.

 

[Bill K]

if it killed everything you shot it with then it did it's job, right ? So what was the different thing it did each time you did not like ?

I am with you on the Terminal Ascent, I personally think it is the finest bullet ever made. I stock pilled them before they got popular and have a lifetime supply. They really are just upgraded Trophy Bonded which were GREAT bullets also. Love em love em love em. Funny though as they are a HALF copper bullet! The front expands and the rear copper drives forward. I also tried that 143gr ELD-x, killed everything I shot with it but it seemed to do something different every time, I like consistency as much as possible.

 

[Doug Casner]

I took old Hornady interlocks this year. Didnt get a shot. Got tired of chasing the latest and greatest hunting bullet out there. Doug

 

[1K6BRA]

In the past, I’ve hunted in places where if a deer ran 70 to 125 yds, someone else would have a bullet in it and claiming they killed it. To me that’s not acceptable performance. Wherever you hunt, that is acceptable. I understand.

It has been my observation in 50 years of shooting critters, mostly Deer that you just don’t know how they are going to react to the shot no matter what cartridge at what speed or what bullet you’re using. Deer in my experience are not very hard to drop on the spot or take a leap or two and fall. Like I said in my message that is probably the furthest one has ever run on me. Must’ve been one tough son of a B!!!! I guess if somebody wants to put another slug in a deer that I just shot and claim it as their own, they need the meat worse than I do. As they say proof is in the pudding. And I have seen a whole bowl full of proof from Barnes TTSX bullets.

 

[Homerange]

No one wants to be told what kind of bullet they can use - including those in other countries - who's sportsmen also don't want their governments to require the use of non-lead. I very begrudgingly adapted the use of them - as I had no choice. I found that many of them shot like crap. The more I worked with certain brands (Barnes being among the best), I found that they could not only be very accurate, but that they put animals down very nicely. I've shot a lot of deer and pigs with them and have never been disappointed. I'd rather shoot lead if I were a "long range" hunter - or one who takes pokes part 500 yards, because copper offerings tend to lose stability faster and accuracy tends to fade a bit faster as a result. Within that range (+/-, depending on caliber), I'd take either one.

I try to be open minded about "experts" (even self-proclaimed experts - as the who created that report) when it comes to their opinions. I do believe (right or wrong) that he was clearly biased, providing many examples of why copper bullets are inferior and had a "higher chance" of wounding game. The guy taking those 275-yard shots at the goat with a .223 (if I am not mistaken) are almost laughable. The main issue is that if he made a well-placed shot with a more suitable cartridge at that distance (never mind the wind was clearly blowing 15+ MPH), that goat wouldn't have just stood there for a full two minutes wondering what happened. But he failed to do that at least twice - the first two shots. So that was an example of a bad bullet? Or poor marksmanship combined with tough conditions and using a minimal(?) caliber for that size of an animal?

Just trying to be subjective here. He further says they tend to be inaccurate, expensive, etc., etc. In fact, they can be just as accurate and cost not more (and in some cases less) than other leaded premium bullets. Then he says bullets that basically expand immediately and shed weight are far better, which copper bullets "don't do". Well, I'd say that also puts long-established leaders in bonded lead bullets in the dirt with copper? Then the video of the other guide who says folks don't use enough bullet to get proper penetration. I tend to agree with that - but is totally contradictory to all the guy said who made that "report". Or the picture of the guy holding the copper bullet in his hand which was recovered from the animal - talking of how long it took the animal to die. The bullet clearly mushroomed nicely (for caliber) and penetrated as far as it could (and copper known to penetrate more than lead), so why did it take "longer" for the animal to die? Another poorly placed shot expecting miracles? Myself being a guy who likes both lead and copper bullets, I think that guy who made that report up is not only biased - but is not as much the "expert" as he thinks he is - and claims to be. I just hate seeing "experts" present falsehoods as "fact" - and hoping the uninitiated take that as the gospel.

As for the "new technology" that is not yet available in America, regarding the DRT bullets, he is keenly unaware that we have had such technology in lead-free design here in the U.S for well over ten years, in the form of varmint bullets - such as Hornady NTX, Nosler lead-free Ballistic Tips and Barnes Varmint Grenades as three I can recall offhand that use sintered, compressed compounds. So - why haven't our lead-free ammo producers made them in big-game bullets? I'd go out on a limb and say one doesn't want the bullet to come apart and dump all its energy on impact - which is what that guy seems to think is ideal. If it worked so well on varmints (and they DO), my guess is we would have seen such a product already for big game. Sounds to me like this guy is hoping to be the "expert" to persuade his government to not go lead-free. For that, I don't blame him - but let's get the facts straight - otherwise one loses all credibility on what he says that is true.

Nathan Foster in NZ is that expert and I urge you to explore his website fully to examine the vast experience gained as a guide and long range shooter.
He also has several books on rifle selection and long range game shooting and works closely with some of the big projectile manufacturers on their projectile terminal performance.
In frustration with a 7mm RUM he developed the 7mm Practical that performs very nearly as well but doesn't suffer from premature throat erosion and I have seen one of these shoot a sub 3" group at 1000yds.

 

[William Vogel]

I know right? I guess I was feeling sassy today LOL

In my life of deer hunting, I made one shoulder shot that was a drop and run situation with tracking to find the deer. All shots since then are head shots and there’s no running involved. I never shot for trophies and my primary purpose is good tasting meat which leads to smaller younger deer. I understand if trophy deer are important it’s not a good idea to shoot them in the head but trophy deer are sour and useless to me.

 

[SixFive]

I bought enough to last many, many years in my .270s, too. I wish I had bought the .308s.

if it killed everything you shot it with then it did it's job, right ? So what was the different thing it did each time you did not like ?

Well it never killed them DRT and blood trails were minimal for me. Granted they did not go to far and I never lost one but I have found other bullets to work better for me. They are dang accurate though!

 

[SixFive]

Like I said guys, respect to you all and I am not putting anyone down. This is just a "me" observation. I appreciate the good discussion we are having and I am trying to keep a VERY open mind. I am open to hearing and pondering it all, that is how we learn. Thanks everyone for the respectful exchange!

One of my best buddies swears by Barnes, he kept telling me I was wrong. Now he has switched to Bonded lead core bullets but he wont say why, but I know! I helped try and track a couple Barnes shot deer we never found this year. Was it him? Was it the bullet? I dunno but he is a dang fine hunter, makes me wonder. In all fairness I must say he is using the 6 BR caliber, I do not think it is enough gun myself but to each his own, he killed many a deer with it, until he didnt.

 

[Homerange]

Like I said guys, respect to you all and I am not putting anyone down. This is just a "me" observation. I appreciate the good discussion we are having and I am trying to keep a VERY open mind. I am open to hearing and pondering it all, that is how we learn. Thanks everyone for the respectful exchange!

One of my best buddies swears by Barnes, he kept telling me I was wrong. Now he has switched to Bonded lead core bullets but he wont say why, but I know! I helped try and track a couple Barnes shot deer we never found this year. Was it him? Was it the bullet? I dunno but he is a dang fine hunter, makes me wonder. In all fairness I must say he is using the 6 BR caliber, I do not think it is enough gun myself but to each his own, he killed many a deer with it, until he didnt.

Yup.
6mm Rem is the smallest I'll use on deer but not on the big Red deer we have in NZ and particularly not for a bush hunt.

The uncles buddy only ever used a 222 until he had a much desired stag give him the slip one time too many.
On the morning of their last day in the scrub he asked to borrow the uncles 270 to have one last go at the stag before they flew out.
This amused my uncle greatly after the years of having shit poked at his 270 as the Pate gun....turns good venison into Pate.
Never bothered my dear now silent trigger uncle, he always said bruised venison was better than none !

Needless to say that wiley stag got harvested and its superb trophy head and there was no further discussion about the calibers each used.
LOL.