Considering Going With a Custom Die

[dkhunt14]

Boyd Allen and many here give very good advice, "BUT" the advice is slanted from a benchrest shooter perspective.

And what I took offensive to was the insult to the late Jim Hull, German Salizar and Kevin Thomas who were and are at the national competitor level. And all of them full length resized their cases and thought "The rat turd in the violin case" was a humorous way of saying they did not neck size.

So again, not every one here is a benchrest shooter or only neck sizes. And I felt Boyd Allen's statment was self centered and insulting to shooters competing at the National Level. And both Jim Hull and Kevin Thomas worked in the Sierra balistic test laboratory and know how to make accurate ammunition.

Below is something I copied from German Salizar's website before it shut down. And below he is answering a question about partial full length resizing, and "WHY" full length resizing is better.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

And again at Mr Salizars website is where I read for the first time Jim Hull's humorous full length resizing statement.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Now go back and read the OP first posting and ask yourself is the OP really ready for a custom die so he doesn't have to adjust for shoulder bump in two AR15 type rifles.

Nobody insulted anybody. Do you think benchrest shooters don't compete on a National level? Nobody said they dont full length size either. The ammo loaded for 1000 yard BR is not the same as ammo loaded shortrange BR, but both are precise. Just the techniques and components are different.

The ammo needed to win at the benchrest level is greater accuracy then needed to win High Power, F-class and some other competitions. It is not insulting anybody or putting them down. It is just what is needed.

John Whidden is also a national competitor and makes a good product. He also put a post on that thread about dies and how he can make a die for an AR. I believe he also competes with an AR at events. He also is a paid advertisor on this forum. He makes good dies and you can read all the posts from people saying so. Matt

 

[sawacs]

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case" hehehe...

 

[Uncle Ed]

Not to break up this party, but the best shooters as far as pure accuracy are of the benchrest variety. If you have a problem with that statement, enter a match and publish how you did. I am not saying that I shoot with the best of them at all, but I have followed those games pretty closely for a couple of decades or more. I think that I can say with great confidence that while they all pretty much full length size, that they would completely reject the whole rat turn in a violin idea. Before you argue with their position on this, as yourself who shoots better than who. Sometimes I get really tired of reading bad advice on the internet.

Boyd Allen's post above is insulting from my perspective, and I'm not the one who coined the phrase about the rat turd in a violin case.

And I quoted three national shooters who have said it, and I sure as hell do not consider it bad advice.

Meaning who does Boyd Allen think he is saying Jim Hull, German Salizar and Kevin Thomas are giving out bad advice. And I have seen German Salizar and Kevin Thomas post here and not be criticized by anyone, so what changed??????

Some days this forum gets as bad as the Snipers Hide with posters with over active egos.

 

[Uncle Ed]

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case" hehehe...

Rather than worrying about setting the die up for the proper amount of shoulder bump, I am seriously considering going the custom die route for a few of the cartridges I reload for (6.8 SPC, 6.5-284, 6mm AR)

I'm 68 and have been reloading for over 47 years and I have never heard of anyone wanting a custom die simply because he didn't want to adjust the amount of shoulder bump by adjusting the die up or down.

This seems to be a very strange idea for anyone to buy a custom die.

Why do you think Whidden puts his case gauge in with all his dies?????

 

[BoydAllen]

You have quoted Hull over and over without explanation, and taken literally, with no additional information, his words would logically be interpreted to mean an unusually loose fit, not just a more colorful way of saying that shooters should FL size. Kevin, who I have know for many years, was writing about neck sizing vs. full length, in favor of FL which is also my position in most situations. He added an explanation of what Hull probably meant. No where in what German wrote was there any Hull reference and all of what he wrote is consistent with what I consider to be up to date theory and practice. This is an accuracy website. You might want to consider that when posting. Telling people that their goal should be to produce loaded rounds should be a very loose fit in the chamber is bad advice. I stand by that. The other issue here is the difference between what most loaders understand FL sizing to be, and what it is at the top level of accuracy for bolt guns. Most shooters have no experience using a FL die that the right size for their chamber, and manufacturers choose to make their dies so that ammunition made with them will work in any factory chamber. As a result the general impression of FL sizing may not be favorable, and there is still a lot of old bad advice out there that was given by folks who had only used one piece FL dies that made crooked brass. That is the whole reason for what German and Kevin wrote, to disabuse people of the idea that neck sizing produces more accurate ammunition.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

There was another guy that took everything sierra said to be gospel and their test lab to be on the cutting edge of accuracy and technology. People use sierra jackets to make good benchrest bullets these days. People that win these days still full length size but they do it a specified amount in certain places- they dont buy a pile of dies and see which one oversizes the most. Im certain back when jim hull said this that is what he meant- it was just figurative speech like the zeros shot from the houston warehouse.

 

[Uncle Ed]

You have quoted Hull over and over without explanation, and taken literally, with no additional information, his words would logically be interpreted to mean an unusually loose fit, not just a more colorful way of saying that shooters should FL size. Kevin, who I have know for many years, was writing about neck sizing vs. full length, in favor of FL which is also my position in most situations. He added an explanation of what Hull probably meant. No where in what German wrote was there any Hull reference and all of what he wrote is consistent with what I consider to be up to date theory and practice. This is an accuracy website. You might want to consider that when posting. Telling people that their goal should be to produce loaded rounds should be a very loose fit in the chamber is bad advice. I stand by that. The other issue here is the difference between what most loaders understand FL sizing to be, and what it is at the top level of accuracy for bolt guns. Most shooters have no experience using a FL die that the right size for their chamber, and manufacturers choose to make their dies so that ammunition made with them will work in any factory chamber. As a result the general impression of FL sizing may not be favorable, and there is still a lot of old bad advice out there that was given by folks who had only used one piece FL dies that made crooked brass. That is the whole reason for what German and Kevin wrote, to disabuse people of the idea that neck sizing produces more accurate ammunition.

I think you have a reading comprehension problem and what the rat turd in the violin case meant. And are going out of your way to put words in my mouth I did not say. And I will say it again, The first time I read about the rat turd in the violin case was at German Salazar's website when he was talking about his friend the late Jim Hull. And the second quote below by German Salazar expresses that the case body and case neck should not have a guiding effect on the bullet. Meaning the cartridge case should be a loose fit in the chamber or the rat turd in the violin case.

And since the OP is asking about dies for the AR15 type rifles the loose fitting rat turd in the violin case is very appropriate for case body diameter fired in a semi-auto. Or are you saying BoydAllen you use a AR15 for your benchrest competition. And where in the OP's postings did he say anything about him shooting in benchrest competition. So get over yourself, the OP wasn't asking a question about benchrest reloading. He was asking about custom dies so he wouldn't have to adjust his die for proper amount of shoulder bump. Or do all benchrest shooter do this because they are too lazy to adjust their dies.

"There's two very common misconceptions that you've expressed here, and I'd like to address them both. One , that N/S extends the life of the brass. As I said, if done properly, F/L sizing gives you every bit as long of case life as N/S can, but without all the additional headaches that go hand in hand with neck sizing. You will have problems if you stick to neck sizing. It's not a question of if but of when. I tend to believe in Murphy in these things, and he'll usually find you when you can least afford a visit from him. And Two, that full length sizing somehow produces less accurate ammo than neck sizing. It doesn't, and is generally the other way around. Virtually all accuracy labs that I'm aware of use nothing but full length sizing for all their testing, and accuracy is what most reloader's dream of. I've fired literally hundreds of thousands of ten shot groups, with well over 95% of them staying far below the 1/2 MOA mark. In fact, when a rifle wouldn't consistently hold 1/2 MOA or under, I scrapped the barrel, as I could no longer use it for test purposes. All of that ammo was full length sized, NEVER neck sized, as it had to work in a variety of different guns. MY predecessor at Sierra, Jim Hull, used to say that a loaded round should fit in a chamber," like a rat turd in a violin case." Jim had a way with words, and creating visual images. But the idea is that it should fit freely, without binding or jamming when chambered. Forget the nonsense about N/S ammo giving better accuracy, because it's exactly that, nonsense. A few isolated examples of individual guns or groups don't change that, and it's the long run averages that count."

Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

Signed
Uncle Ed your Dutch Uncle

 

[mikeeg02]

I apparently have the comprehension problem. Because at this point, I cant even tell what point you are even trying to argue about anymore. And I even started to read this from the beginning.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I apparently have the comprehension problem. Because at this point, I cant even tell what point you are even trying to argue about anymore. And I even started to read this from the beginning.

Then stop drinking so much Yuengling beer and stop moving your lips when you read and your comprehension will improve.
Or people will think your a Coal Cracker from Pennsyltucky.

 

[alinwa]

Take Heart Friend Boyd...... the folks who care got's no trouble separating the rat turds from the pepper....so's I won't stir the porridge.

Al- Funny Folk- Inwa

 

[R.Morehouse]

So......Neck turn....Size FL size ( neck included ), give yourself a few K shoulder bump & load them into the lands ( maybe even soft seat them ). Does that about cover it. I have been FL sizing & only sizing the neck aprox. 2/3 under the assumption that the other 1/3 was helping keep things going strait into the barrel. Is my 1st. 1/3 introducing a variable that is hindering my accuracy?

Regards
Rick

 

[sawacs]

I'm 68 and have been reloading for over 47 years and I have never heard of anyone wanting a custom die simply because he didn't want to adjust the amount of shoulder bump by adjusting the die up or down.

This seems to be a very strange idea for anyone to buy a custom die.

Why do you think Whidden puts his case gauge in with all his dies?????

I am by no means an expert reloading specialist. However, I thought wouldn't it be nice if I could take a die designed around one of my AR chambers and have a case sized down to match that specific chamber in a manner that would provide optimal sizing, for the specific chamber, without over working the brass.

Please take into consideration that what one individual considers strange, another individual might consider to be a wonderful idea such as myself

Lastly, there are always first times for everything. For example, you have now heard of someone wanting a custom die made for a specific chamber to negate the necessity of adjusting the die to bump the shoulder the proper amount.

Some folks might consider the method lazy. However, I would summarize it by saying it is "convenient precision".

 

[BoydAllen]

So......Neck turn....Size FL size ( neck included ), give yourself a few K shoulder bump & load them into the lands ( maybe even soft seat them ). Does that about cover it. I have been FL sizing & only sizing the neck aprox. 2/3 under the assumption that the other 1/3 was helping keep things going strait into the barrel. Is my 1st. 1/3 introducing a variable that is hindering my accuracy?

Regards
Rick

It sounds trite, but test and believe your targets. Seriously. One thing that I can tell you is that for bullets with pressure rings, I believe that it is best if the pressure ring of the seated bullet, including its final soft seated position, falls within the sized portion of the neck, particularly when using powders that seem to respond favorably to more bullet pull.

 

[alinwa]

Also.... believe your case life. Never forget that if your cases are growing longer "as you shoot"..... ya got's ta' ask y'erself, "where's that length coming from???"

The ANSWER is, "from over-sizing."

 

[Barlow]

Imo, a Forster honed die is a custom die. Barlow

 

[Uncle Ed]

I am by no means an expert reloading specialist. However, I thought wouldn't it be nice if I could take a die designed around one of my AR chambers and have a case sized down to match that specific chamber in a manner that would provide optimal sizing, for the specific chamber, without over working the brass.

Please take into consideration that what one individual considers strange, another individual might consider to be a wonderful idea such as myself

Lastly, there are always first times for everything. For example, you have now heard of someone wanting a custom die made for a specific chamber to negate the necessity of adjusting the die to bump the shoulder the proper amount.

Some folks might consider the method lazy. However, I would summarize it by saying it is "convenient precision".

I'm going to give you my honest opinion for your two AR15 type rifles.

Keep the dies you have and get some Redding competition shell holders. The shell holders allow you to adjust the amount of shoulder bump and never touch the die. Also in Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition" he states the resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than their fired diameter. And this allows the semi-auto rifle case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably. So this means a even smaller rat turd in the violin case.

Just remember that semi-auto chambers are .001 to .002 larger in diameter than a standard bolt action chamber. So you need to measure a few fired cases at three points along the case body and again after full length resizing.

Below a Colt AR15 5.56 Field gauge at 1.4736

And below the same gauge in my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. The gauge was adjusted by placing a .011 feeler gauge between the red and silver sections of the gauge. Meaning the unadjusted gauge was reading minus .011 shorter from the actual Field gauge length.

Below a fired case from my AR15 carbine and then the die is adjusted for .003 shoulder bump using Redding competition shell holders. If I used the standard shell holder and set the die up per the instructions the shoulder would be pushed back .007. So I just select the +.004 competition for .003 shoulder bump and never touch or adjust the resizing die.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Also.... believe your case life. Never forget that if your cases are growing longer "as you shoot"..... ya got's ta' ask y'erself, "where's that length coming from???"

The ANSWER is, "from over-sizing."

Any time you full length resize and reduce the case diameter to get case body clearance the case will grow as it is squeezed. And this depends on the chamber diameter and the dies diameter and having a little luck with the chamber and die combination.

 

[sawacs]

I'm going to give you my honest opinion for your two AR15 type rifles.

Keep the dies you have and get some Redding competition shell holders. The shell holders allow you to adjust the amount of shoulder bump and never touch the die. Also in Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition" he states the resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than their fired diameter. And this allows the semi-auto rifle case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably. So this means a even smaller rat turd in the violin case.

Just remember that semi-auto chambers are .001 to .002 larger in diameter than a standard bolt action chamber. So you need to measure a few fired cases at three points along the case body and again after full length resizing.

Below a Colt AR15 5.56 Field gauge at 1.4736

And below the same gauge in my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. The gauge was adjusted by placing a .011 feeler gauge between the red and silver sections of the gauge. Meaning the unadjusted gauge was reading minus .011 shorter from the actual Field gauge length.

Below a fired case from my AR15 carbine and then the die is adjusted for .003 shoulder bump using Redding competition shell holders. If I used the standard shell holder and set the die up per the instructions the shoulder would be pushed back .007. So I just select the +.004 competition for .003 shoulder bump and never touch or adjust the resizing die.

Great information Ed and thank you!

I really do appreciate all of the information from everyone who has contributed to this thread: there is a wealth of information!

Part of the fun in reloading is trying find a method that is efficient, functional and pays off when the trigger is pulled. I will have to admit that sometimes I overthink things and tend to complicate procedures that shouldn't be so complicated. However, I am always on the lookout for the "best" way to do something even though a particular method might not be the "best" method if that makes any sense

The nice part about a discussion such as this one is it brings together different methods and ideas from a multitude of different folks, including vendors such as Whidden who actually make the stuff, with knowledge that some of us don't have.

I have definitely benefited from all of the information gained here and hope others in the future can as well.

Thank you all!

Btw, please feel free to keep posting thoughts and ideas as I do love to read and learn.

Cheers!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So......Neck turn....Size FL size ( neck included ), give yourself a few K shoulder bump & load them into the lands ( maybe even soft seat them ). Does that about cover it. I have been FL sizing & only sizing the neck aprox. 2/3 under the assumption that the other 1/3 was helping keep things going strait into the barrel. Is my 1st. 1/3 introducing a variable that is hindering my accuracy?

Regards
Rick

Thats all good except how are you sizing only 2/3 of the neck- are you backing the bushing stop out? Really all you need is a spot the size of where a donut would be- not a whole 1/3. Usually just backing off enough for the bushing to rattle plus the radius on the edge of the bushing is what i consider perfect. Give that a try- itll be easier on your bolt lugs, brass and the whole setup

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Take this for what it's worth. I've got two ARs that are fairly accurate relatively speaking (~ a very consistent .65-.75 MOA). Previously I'd been using your standard Redding FL sizing dies (leaving the expander in) and bumping ~.006-.007 in this specific AR15. I recently tried an experiment of loading for it the same I would my bolt gun (neck turned LC brass, bumped the shoulder .002, bushing FL sized .003 under loaded diameter, and mandrel expanded up for .001 neck tension; all brass perfectly trimmed in Giraud) and didn't see any difference in group size or group consistency. I also didn't have any problems with bullet setback or any drama associated with auto/mag loading; go figure.

I'm confident this barrel would be garbage in the service rifle comp world, but it's a shooter relative to most of the ARs that I encounter in the wild. That said, if you're running a Krieger or Bartlein etc. it may be worth trying some of the methods that are listed in this thread, but it's my opinion with ARs they just aren't as sensitive to brass prep, or if they are, that's all vastly over-shadowed by barrel quality, gas system setup, buffer/spring setup, BCG etc.

Basically, with a high quality bolt gun I've been able to see differences on paper with hyper-anal reloading practices; I haven't gotten those same results with my ARs.

Lastly, you can do all the brass prep you want in the world, but if the gun isn't setup right, it's all wasted effort. I've had a few AR10s in .260; one of which was way over-gassed (rifle length gas; not extended). That thing would literally deform case heads on new Lapua brass trying to rip it out of the chamber, using relatively tame load data.

Edit: This was mentioned in another thread today about custom dies, but it bears repeating. Custom dies are great, but they'll be setup for brass out of that gun/from that reamer. If you've got a reamer that you'll use to chamber barrels until you die, great. If not, it might not be a wise investment.