Considering Going With a Custom Die

[Uncle Ed]

Not all of my rifles are for benchrest, and not all of my dies are custom. I speaking to the issue of a very loose fit being a virtue, which I believe is not the case, and bad advice. I stand by that. I often advise shooters to try a collet die in combination with a body die, for the reason cited. It works very well.

Again two of the rifles the OP has are AR15 platforms and "NOT" benchrest rifles. And you need to rethink your statement about a "loose fit" being bad advice. Or do you plan to tell Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA who worked in the Sierra test lab with Jim Hull he is sizing his cases the wrong way.

And this website is not Benchrest Central and your opinions are not the only advice given in reloading forums by well known shooters.

And again not everyone here has a benchrest mentality of reloading, and the main page of Accurate Shooter covers all spectrum's of shooting and reloading.

And some rifles don't use a rest or even have scopes at Accurate Shooter.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/competition/palma-basics-in-usa/

 

[dkhunt14]

And I get really tired of benchrest shooters giving out advice to reloaders who do not shoot in benchrest competition.

So Mr. Boyd Allen in many respects you have tunnel vision and think this forum is only for benchrest shooters and it is not.

The name of this forum is "Reloading Forum (All Calibers) and not labeled for Benchrest shooters only.

This site is called ACCURATE SHOOTER OR 6BR which stands for benchrest.

A simple answer would of been i think you would be better served with this die and why. Nowhere in your explanantion did it say that. Just pages copied from reloading manuals and sites. Much of what wasnt needed.

A Whidden custom die is 118.00 and comes with a nice headspace guage that fits your calipers. I doubt you can buy 3 sizing dies for that and they dont come with a headspace guage. MATT

 

[dkhunt14]

And I get really tired of benchrest shooters giving out advice to reloaders who do not shoot in benchrest competition.

So Mr. Boyd Allen in many respects you have tunnel vision and think this forum is only for benchrest shooters and it is not.

The name of this forum is "Reloading Forum (All Calibers) and not labeled for Benchrest shooters only.

Then you have on the other hand shooters coming here to learn how to reload more accurate ammo. Not just the common reloader who wants to load a few rounds for deer season.

I talk to alot of shooters and they PM me. I can guarantee a lot of F-Class and other shooters are using BR techniques to load their ammo. According to the PM's I got with questions on loading. I also can guarantee alot told me they were doing alot of BR loading techniques and they werent telling anybody.

So I hope you have a good day Mr EdP51. Matt

 

[fguffey]

Advice would be most appreciated.

'Make a 'custom' die': Around here there is no shortage of tools when it comes to precision measurements and there is the one thing a precision tool must incorporate; that would be the datum. I know to most reloaders the value of the datum is elusive and misunderstood tool. Well, I am past all of that elusive and misunderstanding of the datum, I can recognize one as soon as I see it. And then? I make datums.

If I was helpless and did not understand the relationship between the die and shell holder I would have to have someone explain it and or do it for me. I understand the shell holder has a deck height of .125", I understand the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die is considered minimum length or full length sized or .005" shorter than the length of a go-gage.

And then there is verifying the die and shell holder. Not a problem if the reloaders has a head space gage. Simply drop the go-gage into the die and then slide the shell holder onto the head of the case. After sliding the shell holder onto the case head measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. The gap should match the clearance between a go-gage length chamber and a minimum length/full length sized case. For the 30/06 that would be .005"

Back to measuring cases: I am a case former, I form first and then fire. Most other reloaders are fire formers, they chamber, pull the trigger and become fire formers. If I was a fire former I would measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head before firing and again after firing. My measuring before and again after I can measure the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. Same with sizing, I am the fan of measuring the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head before sizing and measure again after sizing.

For me? It is easier because it is not impossible to move the shoulder back when sizing and or bumping. I have no problem shortening the distance from the shoulder/datum to the case head but the shoulder dies not move back. And that is impossible for a reloadesrs to wrap their minds around.

I have turned cases into accordions, I have created cases that had the appearance of bellows when determining if annealing was necessary.

F. Guffey

 

[Uncle Ed]

Rather than worrying about setting the die up for the proper amount of shoulder bump, I am seriously considering going the custom die route for a few of the cartridges I reload for (6.8 SPC, 6.5-284, 6mm AR)

If I were to head down this road, do you guys have any recommendations on how to proceed?

For example, for the 6.8 SPC which is in an AR-15 platform, should I fire a few rounds one time each and send those cases off to have a custom die made or go to the trouble of creating a cast of the chamber? My goal with the 6.8 is to be able to run the case through the die, size the case body while bumping the shoulder back the right amount and sizing the neck down for .003 neck tension.

When it comes to a bolt action, such as my 6.5-284, should I fire the cases a few times without bumping the shoulder back or make a chamber cast?

Lastly, who would you fellas recommend to have a custom die made?

Advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

So how many benchrest shooters use a AR15 type rifles in bench rest competition? And the rat turd in the violin case simply means full length resizing and applies to the vast majority of rifles. And why would the OP need a custom die from Whidden "Rather than worrying about setting the die up for the proper amount of shoulder bump" when Whidden dies still need to be adjusted for the proper amount shoulder bump.

And now even F. Guffey is giving his redundant never ending unneeded advice.

 

[Nature Boy]

Both of those gadgets (pma adjuster and whidden click) are very cool to have

I have 2 custom Widden dies. One made off of fired cases and the other from the reamer print. I second Dusty's opinion. The click adjustable feature on the sizing die is slick and one click does indeed equal 0.001" shoulder bump (the lamentation of Fguffy not withstanding)

 

[fguffey]

I have turned cases into accordions, I have created cases that had the appearance of bellows when determining if annealing was necessary.

I can see I have locked up most of the annealing crowd, whole applying the bellows I move the shoulder back. I could ask, 'how is that possible?' the problem with annealers is trying to find one that understands what caused the bellows and understand how to move the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

 

[spife7980]

I can see I have locked up most of the annealing crowd, whole applying the bellows I move the shoulder back. I could ask, 'how is that possible?' the problem with annealers is trying to find one that understands what caused the bellows and understand how to move the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

What in the fuck does any of this have to do with the merits of a custom sizing die?

Guffey being guffey aka talking in circles with himself as usual.

 

[Comrade Terry]

Guffey being guffey aka talking in circles with himself as usual.

A circle jerk!

 

[Rsadams]

There's an ignore button if it bothers you that much...

 

[sawacs]

Thanks for the discussion and information fellas..

Here is my take from all of this.

I think a custom die can be handy for use in a bolt gun whether you have one made from reamer prints or fired cases. For my 260 and 6.5x284, the only option I have is to use fired cases or a chamber cast because I do not have access to the reamer prints. The only reason I really want a custom die is to not overwork the brass. Of course, another other option besides a custom die would be using competition shell holders and a bushing die.

Regarding an AR, I think a custom die could also come in handy so as not to overwork brass. However, for an AR I think the better option would be to send the die off and have it honed a little in the neck if needed and use a set of the Redding competition shell holders for shoulder bump if needed.

There is also one last option that could solve all of the worry...…. Grab a set of dies, size a case, prime, charge, seat a bullet and go shoot the darned thing and never look back! If for some reason the brass gets overworked, buy new brass

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[whiddengunworks]

Sawacs you're thinking is right. I'll also point out one other advantage of the custom die.

We can adjust the amount of sizing a little to meet the needs of an AR vs a bolt gun. Typically we make the dies .0025" smaller in diameter at both the shoulder and the base than the fired brass. This usually yields about .0015" of sizing depending on brass condition and other variables. Should you desire a little more sizing for the AR, just let us know you'd prefer .0035" or .004" or any other number that you'd like. We can also size different amounts at the shoulder and base.

Neck diameter on a nonbushing die can be whatever number you like.

We have a lot of flexibility to offer on this!

 

[HTSmith]

If your loads are mild, and you are meeting your accuracy goals then neck sizing may be a valid approach. Might I suggest that to my knowledge for unturned necks, no neck sizer produces cases that are as straight as a Collet die, and they have thee advantage of not needing any lube on the case. Rather than go to a FL die of the ordinary one piece variety for the times when your cases have gotten tighter than you want, I suggest a body die which does every thing that a FL die does except size the neck. Using a collet die in combination with a body die as a two stage sizing process produces very good results. If you compare the straightness of fired cases and measure the same cases after body sizing with proper shoulder bump, I think that you will be impressed.

I can vouch that this approach works well. I can also vouch that that a couple of folks on this forum have helped me a lot even though I'm not a BR shooter and don't have a lot of the equipment (BoydAllen, dkhunt14, and DustyStevens). Don't understand all the vitriol.

 

[sawacs]

I can vouch that this approach works well. I can also vouch that that a couple of folks on this forum have helped me a lot even though I'm not a BR shooter and don't have a lot of the equipment (BoydAllen, dkhunt14, and DustyStevens). Don't understand all the vitriol.

I take it you guys are referring to using the Lee collet dies? Since I do not currently own a custom set of dies, I always try and use a body die followed by an expand mandrel to set the desired neck tension: I cringe at the thought of pulling the expander ball back through the case neck.

However, I would be open to giving the collet die a try.

Thanks

 

[HTSmith]

I take it you guys are referring to using the Lee collet dies? Since I do not currently own a custom set of dies, I always try and use a body die followed by an expand mandrel to set the desired neck tension: I cringe at the thought of pulling the expander ball back through the case neck.

However, I would be open to giving the collet die a try.

Thanks

Lee also sells various diameter mandrels for the dies or you can spin them in emery paper to reduce a little bit for neck tension purposes.

 

[fguffey]

Sawacs you're thinking is right. I'll also point out one other advantage of the custom die.

How does that work? My dies and my presses have threads, threads maker my die adjustable to the shell holder. Some of you reloaders have short memories but from the big inning I have incorporated the feeler gage when using the Wilson case gage and when adjusting the die to the shell holder.

F. Guffey

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yall know by now i dont advocate anything lee makes for any type of even half precision loading but lots of people use the collet die with success. Im an advocate of a simple regimen which using a collet die then a body die is 2 steps, i prefer one- a fl die with bushings to adjust neck tension and no expander ball to plow back thru the neck. Some say to neck size and body size as necessary- this is like annealing every few firings- not consistent. If you use a fl bushing die, no expander ball, and do the same thing every firing, your brass is exactly the same every time you use it. One argument is low runout on the lcd route but if you get a good quality die its a non issue and you dont have to take a shower or get a tetanus shot after using it. Of course everybodys mileage varies- some can deal with clicky brass and have tons of time to goof around loading ammo but i load between relays so i have to find the simplest way that works the fastest and my brass has to run fast and smooth every trip to the line with no regard to case life if thats another argument. Testing is in order to see what works best for you.

 

[HTSmith]

I have to qualify my comments. I'm at best a "semi-precision" reloader. I was agreeing with Boyd that if one doesn't turn necks, a body die and a LCD works pretty well. And I have to admit that Lee isn't always the most inexpensive route. I paid more for my 6BR die (custom from Lee) than a Harrells die would have cost.

 

[alinwa]

.................. Don't understand all the vitriol.

I do.

I've been on the receiving end of this vitriol since High School

I was the Designated Driver.

I was the guy got the call at 3AM "come help us!"

I was the guy everybody hated the next day.

My behind-the-back nickname was "Perfect Al"

I understood in my teens the phrase "no good deed goes unpunished" and

I learned young that no matter what yer Mom told you, "doing the right thing" will always result in a percentage of the people reacting like stepped on cats.

My heart hurts for mean people.


BTW

Keep up the good work Boyd yer not pissin' everyone off, some ARE lissening!!!

And being helped.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Boyd Allen and many here give very good advice, "BUT" the advice is slanted from a benchrest shooter perspective.

And what I took offensive to was the insult to the late Jim Hull, German Salizar and Kevin Thomas who were and are at the national competitor level. And all of them full length resized their cases and thought "The rat turd in the violin case" was a humorous way of saying they did not neck size.

So again, not every one here is a benchrest shooter or only neck sizes. And I felt Boyd Allen's statment was self centered and insulting to shooters competing at the National Level. And both Jim Hull and Kevin Thomas worked in the Sierra balistic test laboratory and know how to make accurate ammunition.

Below is something I copied from German Salizar's website before it shut down. And below he is answering a question about partial full length resizing, and "WHY" full length resizing is better.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

And again at Mr Salizars website is where I read for the first time Jim Hull's humorous full length resizing statement.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Now go back and read the OP first posting and ask yourself is the OP really ready for a custom die so he doesn't have to adjust for shoulder bump in two AR15 type rifles.