Considering Going With a Custom Die

[tenring]

Check today's Bulletin re Whidden dies.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Check today's Bulletin re Whidden dies.

Both of those gadgets (pma adjuster and whidden click) are very cool to have

 

[Uncle Ed]

sawacs

In Glen Zediker book "HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION" he states the case body should be sized .003 to .005 smaller in diemeter than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably.

If you did anything I would just buy a .223 Forster full length benchrest die and have the neck honed to your desired diameter. And I would also buy a set of Redding competition shell holders to accurately control the amount of shoulder bump without touching the die.

And remember what the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab humorously said about full length resizing.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Click on the image below and read what Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA has to say.

 

[dkhunt14]

sawacs

In Glen Zediker book "HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION" he states the case body should be sized .003 to .005 smaller in diemeter than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably.

If you did anything I would just buy a .223 Forster full length benchrest die and have the neck honed to your desired diameter. And I would also buy a set of Redding competition shell holders to accurately control the amount of shoulder bump without touching the die.

And remember what the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab humorously said about full length resizing.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Click on the image below and read what Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA has to say.

I never saw any of them or their bullets win a benchrest match. Matt

 

[Uncle Ed]

dkhunt

sawacs is loading two cartridges for a AR15 platform the 6.8 SPC,and 6mm AR, and I do not think a AR15 type rifle is used in benchrest competition. And I'm also not sure if sawacs 6.5-284 is being used for benchrest competition either.

So forgive me for thinking outside the benchrest box.

 

[dkhunt14]

dkhunt

sawacs is loading two cartridges for a AR15 platform the 6.8 SPC,and 6mm AR, and I do not think a AR15 type rifle is used in benchrest competition. And I'm also not sure if sawacs 6.5-284 is being used for benchrest competition either.

So forgive me for thinking outside the benchrest box.

Then that is what you should tell him. Plain and simple. AR and bolt action is a complete different platform and reloading techniques. Matt

 

[Uncle Ed]

dkhunt 14 Sir

I'm not a competitive shooter and the main reason this old dog is here is to learn new tricks, and be a better and smarter reloader.
I also try to write my posts to the lowest common denominator, meaning so even new reloaders will understand. This includes images that are imprinted in your mind and remembered far longer that words. Some of the more experienced reloaders take this as an insult thinking I'm talking down to them. And it is not my intention to insult anyone with the exception of the person with the initials of F. Guffey. And as you can see I also have a warped sense of GI humor.

That being said the average reloader is better off with Forster full length benchrest dies and the Forster benchrest seater dies. And the reason for this is the Forster dies produce very concentric cases and ammunition and are much cheaper than custom dies.

On top of this there is a warning at the Whidden custom die website that tells you the Whidden sizing dies are cut shorter than standard dies. And if the die is adjusted to touch the shell holder the case shoulder will be pushed back excessively and even F. Guffey couldn't fix the cartridge "headspace".

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Sizer-die-warning-statement.pdf
WARNING
Failure to adhere with below warning could result in damaged and unsafe brass!
The Whidden Gunworks Sizer Die is engineered with a shorter overall length (OAL) compared to other manufactures of sizer dies. This means you can set the shoulder back further if desired based on your specific application. This die is not intended to be used while bottomed out or screwed flush with the shell plate. Doing so will result in the shoulder being set back too far, possibly rendering the casing unusable. During initial setup screw the die flush with the shell plate then back off 1-1 1⁄2 turns, NOTE: Each full turn of the Sizer is approx. .071” so it does not have to be turned very far to make a noticeable adjustment. Instructions are included with each die set and can also be found at www.whiddengunworks.com-reloading-dies-instructions.

And since I think I have more than a little reloading experience, I try not to ask stupid questions in reloading forums.

But I will try to help and answer questions and I think the OP here does not need a custom die.

Signed Uncle Ed your Dutch Uncle.

 

[Barlow]

I asked the question a few months ago about the difference in accuracy between a custom and standard off the shelf die, like Forster. Iirc nobody could prove any difference. Barlow

 

[Uncle Ed]

I asked the question a few months ago about the difference in accuracy between a custom and standard off the shelf die, like Forster. Iirc nobody could prove any difference. Barlow

I like the humorous saying the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab had about full length resizing.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

So what good is a custom die that the sized case has minimum body clearance. And then if the case does not have equal case wall thickness and the thin side of the case expands more and the case warps. Then you have a full length sized case where the case body is contacting the chamber walls and pushing the bullet out of alignment with the bore.

A full length resized case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat. And the only part of the case that should be touching the chamber walls is the case shoulder.

Below another explanation of the rat turd in the violin case.

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

 

[Uncle Ed]

I also have a cheaper option than the a click adjustable Whidden resizing die.

They are called Redding competition shell holders and a Forster full length bench rest die.

Signed
Uncle Ed the cheap bastard.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

you can make straight cases with some lee dies too but who wants to not be able to adjust neck tension during load development or as the brass ages. You can collect a whole pile of dies trying to find straight ones or just get a fl whidden bushing die and be done with it.

 

[JFrank]

Rather than worrying about setting the die up for the proper amount of shoulder bump, I am seriously considering going the custom die route for a few of the cartridges I reload for (6.8 SPC, 6.5-284, 6mm AR)

If I were to head down this road, do you guys have any recommendations on how to proceed?

For example, for the 6.8 SPC which is in an AR-15 platform, should I fire a few rounds one time each and send those cases off to have a custom die made or go to the trouble of creating a cast of the chamber? My goal with the 6.8 is to be able to run the case through the die, size the case body while bumping the shoulder back the right amount and sizing the neck down for .003 neck tension.

When it comes to a bolt action, such as my 6.5-284, should I fire the cases a few times without bumping the shoulder back or make a chamber cast?

Lastly, who would you fellas recommend to have a custom die made?

Advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

I use a Wilson case gage to determine ideal headspace and trim length. As per a phone conversation with the tech at LE Wilson their F/L bushing die will minimum resize the body without overworking the brass you can adjust headspace by use of the threads on the die.
I like Wilson for my 308
Jim

 

[BoydAllen]

Not to break up this party, but the best shooters as far as pure accuracy are of the benchrest variety. If you have a problem with that statement, enter a match and publish how you did. I am not saying that I shoot with the best of them at all, but I have followed those games pretty closely for a couple of decades or more. I think that I can say with great confidence that while they all pretty much full length size, that they would completely reject the whole rat turn in a violin idea. Before you argue with their position on this, ask yourself who shoots better than who. Sometimes I get really tired of reading bad advice on the internet.

 

[Uncle Ed]

you can make straight cases with some lee dies too but who wants to not be able to adjust neck tension during load development or as the brass ages. You can collect a whole pile of dies trying to find straight ones or just get a fl whidden bushing die and be done with it.

Whidden dies also sell expander kits so you can adjust neck tension with their non-bushing full length dies.

And you can get custom diameter mandrels for the Lee collet die.

And the reason so many reloaders use the Lee collet die with a body die is because it produces cases with less neck runout than a bushing die.

But smart, good looking and modest reloaders prefer Forster full length benchrest dies.

And you can buy three Forster dies with honed necks for the cost on one Whidden die.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Not to break up this party, but the best shooters as far as pure accuracy are of the benchrest variety. If you have a problem with that statement, enter a match and publish how you did. I am not saying that I shoot with the best of them at all, but I have followed those games pretty closely for a couple of decades or more. I think that I can say with great confidence that while they all pretty much full length size, that they would completely reject the whole rat turn in a violin idea. Before you argue with their position on this, as yourself who shoots better than who. Sometimes I get really tired of reading bad advice on the internet.

And I get really tired of benchrest shooters giving out advice to reloaders who do not shoot in benchrest competition.

So Mr. Boyd Allen in many respects you have tunnel vision and think this forum is only for benchrest shooters and it is not.

The name of this forum is "Reloading Forum (All Calibers) and not labeled for Benchrest shooters only.

And the first place I read about the "rat turd in the violin case" was at German Salizar's "The Riflemans Journal" Website. And this was when he was talking about his shooting buddy the late Jim Hull who coined the phrase.

"The Cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".

So I guess not everyone shoots in benchrest competition, like Kevin Thomas below of Team Lapua USA.

Click on the image below to enlarge

One problem I notice in forums is some of the people posting tend to look at their computer screen and think what they are looking at belongs to them. And these people forget to share the forum with the other people also looking at their computer screens in a "open forum".

Have a nice day

 

[Uncle Ed]

Space reserved for non-benchrest shooters.

It might be a double post from above but I never make typing mistakes.

 

[BoydAllen]

Not all of my rifles are for benchrest, and not all of my dies are custom. I speaking to the issue of a very loose fit being a virtue, which I believe is not the case, and bad advice. I stand by that. I often advise shooters to try a collet die in combination with a body die, for the reason cited. It works very well. I have also done a work around using an unhoned FL die by removing the expanding decapping assembly, decapping with a punch, lubing the inside of the necks and expanding with a expanding die and mandrel, which gave superior results to any method of using the die's expander, no matter how that was done. My point was not to denigrate smaller budgets but to advise against a particular statement. I have a lot of factory rifles and off of the shelf dies. When a case is sized a lot in the body, the differences in body thickness that are particularly common in domestic brass cause the case to be sized more on the thin size than the thick, resulting in what Creighton Audette referred to as a banana shaped case. If we have a better match between chamber and die this effect is smaller. Of course you do not want a case to bind in the chamber, but I have not found that to be a problem with more closely matched dies. The approach that I favor, to save money is to buy a die and size some well used, and work hardened cases, measure them, and order a chamber reamer that will produce the desired clearance with that sized brass. I have done this for several projects with exceptional results. Of course if the die is one piece turning necks becomes a necessity, but if one buys a bushing FL die, it is not. loose is a relative term, and for some applications you will want more clearance then others, but the expression used would seem to advocate extreme looseness of fit, and I do not believe that to be an advantage for any application.

 

[270WinDude]

I suck at shooting but can’t avoid controversy... wouldn’t a normal shooter more closely replicate the br shooters by using thier standard equipment like a collet to neck size? Or is a standard fl sizer going to more closely replicate the fit? I imagine a custom fl die is still going to be a tight fit, just more presice and consistent brass after brass.

If I ever build a custom gun and custom chamber I’ll without a doubt go custom fl sizing as that is what I’m told is done with br. But the boat I’m in now I feel that I’d rather just use my ff brass and neck size. Granted it’s been a while since I sat down at a desk with all the measurement averages to see the difference between the two options in relation to what I guess my chamber specs are. I guess unless I can tell you the exact measurement of my chamber and then pose the sizing question in a matter of numbers, I couldn’t get a straight forward answer since that question would be far to vague.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I suck at shooting but can’t avoid controversy... wouldn’t a normal shooter more closely replicate the br shooters by using thier standard equipment like a collet to neck size? Or is a standard fl sizer going to more closely replicate the fit? I imagine a custom fl die is still going to be a tight fit, just more presice and consistent brass after brass.

If I ever build a custom gun and custom chamber I’ll without a doubt go custom fl sizing as that is what I’m told is done with br. But the boat I’m in now I feel that I’d rather just use my ff brass and neck size. Granted it’s been a while since I sat down at a desk with all the measurement averages to see the difference between the two options in relation to what I guess my chamber specs are. I guess unless I can tell you the exact measurement of my chamber and then pose the sizing question in a matter of numbers, I couldn’t get a straight forward answer since that question would be far to vague.

You can neck size to get a tight chamber fit with the brass, but eventually after so many firings the brass will start getting difficult to chamber and extract. Then you have to FL size the case to make it fit properly again.

I used to neck size when I first started reloading thinking I could maintain a tight chamber fit. And it did. But once I realized I had to eventually FL size the cases due yo chambering issues and my body/shoulder dimensions were all over the place, I saw no point in neck sizing alone. FL sizing also allows you to control consistency in the overall case dimensions. Neck sizing does not control anything but the neck and let's the shoulder and body of the case do whatever it wants after each firing. No consistency there.

 

[270WinDude]

You can neck size to get a tight chamber fit with the brass, but eventually after so many firings the brass will start getting difficult to chamber and extract. Then you have to FL size the case to make it fit properly again.

I used to neck size when I first started reloading thinking I could maintain a tight chamber fit. And it did. But once I realized I had to eventually FL size the cases due yo chambering issues and my body/shoulder dimensions were all over the place, I saw no point in neck sizing alone. FL sizing also allows you to control consistency in the overall case dimensions. Neck sizing does not control anything but the neck and let's the shoulder and body of the case do whatever it wants after each firing. No consistency there.

very true. It’s defiantly a conscious sacrifice. Where is the consistency when 2 shots to get ff’ed then you got maybe 4 to 10 from there before you should fl size again. I’m just going to have to look at my measurements again and bust out the headspace thing for my calipers. I grew too fond of the neck size only with ff brass theory lol always open minded though.