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Cleaning with brush - forward only?

Boyd, I have to agree with you, i found the best rod was an Ivy that is wiped off every pass and the best guide was one that centers the rod in the action. If the insert is out side the action it does nothing. I run everything one way patches and brush both, with one exception is after it is clean i will pull one back through slowly with a 50/50 mix on it to check for carbon. My crowns remain excellent as i check them with a bore scope as much as the throat. This has served me well for a great number of barrels over the years, and i almost started to pull them back through due to getting old and lazy. i realized it is time to hang it up if i drag a dirt back through the barrel i'm trying to clean out……. jim
 
Precisely. Those Nollan guides look super. I have several of the Lucas guides and I really like them too. Might try the Nollan next time around for sure.
 
Johara,

The Crown Cradle has the added benefit of acting as a "squeegee" for your bore brush (preferably nylon)as it passes through the muzzle and the insert. There is some videos on at http://crowncradle.bigcartel.com which demonstrate this. The last one is best to see this happen.
 
gunner69 said:
Johara,

The Crown Cradle has the added benefit of acting as a "squeegee" for your bore brush (preferably nylon)as it passes through the muzzle and the insert. There is some videos on at http://crowncradle.bigcartel.com which demonstrate this. The last one is best to see this happen.

I have false muzzles that keep the rod from dropping down against the crown when the brush or patch went past the muzzle. It screwed on in place of the brake, but don't like pulling dirt back through that i just pushed out. A couple of passes i am done with a brush.
I even cut the Lucas bore guide and bore the hole deeper so the insert is inside the rear of the action. This holds it centered better……. jim
 
Some years back, I concluded that bore cleaning was a chemical process, and not a mechanical one. I began to discount the concept of 'scrubbing' a bore. But I still used a brush..., a nylon brush. In my estimate, it does a better job of distributing solvent than a patch. I see the real work of cleaning as being the soaking action of the solvent.

Later, I went with Outer's Gunslick Bore Cleaning Foam, with no brush at all as a part of the regimen. Examination with a bore scope indicated that the Foam got the bore as clean as anything else, and on a few occasions, it got everything that was visible out.

Greg
 
Warthog 1134 was the best i found, but like all good things they come to an end. KG1 is the next best i found……. jim
 
Just my 2 cents worth, but we set a 60,000psi, 5000 degree bomb off inside of our barrels every time we pull the trigger. The bullet is compressed to the point of very tight obturation to the bore, which expands to some degree as well as bends and flexes while and after the bullet is in the bore, packing grit and debris with it.
It's amazing what all is going on and how consistent and repeatably we can harness all those goings-on while shooting one hole groups. Amazing! All with lands that are about as tall as a human hair is thick. There's lots going on and into it that doesn't readily meet the eye.


Over time, a very long time...a CLEAN phosphor bronze brush may day the crown. In a much shorter time, a DIRTY brush will do the same, as the dirt acts as an abrasive. That said, yes, it's inevitable that you will eventually wear or dull the nice sharp crown that we painstakingly indicate true and machine...for about 50 bucks.


The question is not if it will damage the crown, but how long will it take to do it to a point where it will degrade accuracy. To some degree we could likely calculate that time. But, based on several years of experience, I can say that IMO, with reasonable care, it's long enough that the throat will need maintenance before the crown will.


I very much believe in the use of a bronze brush in my cleaning regimen, mostly for the purpose of cleaning hard carbon from the bore. I'm yet to find a carbon cleaner that is effective enough on carbon, without the aid of agitation with a brush. There are cleaners that will soften it and the brush can score the carbon enough to let the cleaners penetrate it, making removal much easier and requiring fewer strokes of a rod through the bore. That's where I feel we can see the most benefit from a brush, as the same dirt and grit that makes the brush abrasive to the crown also winds up on the rod while in the bore. No matter the rod, and no matter the guide, the rod and this grit will come into contact with the lands. This is true, whether we're brushing or not, as long as we're "pushing" the rod through the bore


So, the fewer times we have to push a rod through, the better off we are, IMHO. A brush simply reduces the strokes necessary. The rod WILL hit the lands near the middle of the bore and the only way to stop it is to pull the rod rather than push it. Bill Calfee even states as fact that a ss rod hits the bore hard enough to gall in a ss barrel. I don't buy that for a minute, but it does come in contact and with a fair amount of pressure, depending largely upon how tight the brush or patch is. My point is, as easy and inexpensive as it is to re-crown...and as much of a pain it is to remove the brush with each stroke...and the amount of time or strokes it will take to damage a crown...I don't see it worth it. We have bigger concerns when it comes to cleaning than pulling the brush back across the crown. Yes, eventually it will dull it, but what will the throat look like by that time and how about the lands near the middle of the bore that have been abraded by the rod with every stroke? I believe in being diligent in regard to careful cleaning, but barrels are just like powder and bullets...expendable. The crown can be touched up at any time if need be. Shooting the small 30's for years, I have seen dulled crowns before the barrel laid down, but they are exceptional in regard to barrel life. A simple touch up of the crown made me feel better, but in all honesty, didn't make it shoot better.


All of that said, you certainly aren't going to hurt anything by removing the brush rather than pulling it back across the crown, so if that's what you want to do, do it. I'll be shooting while you're cleaning your gun.
 
markr said:
skyav8r said:
Plus, you pull that brush back through, what's the first thing that happens when the bristles clear the bore? They fling all that crud you are trying to remove right into the chamber, lug, and bolt raceway.

Not if you're using a proper bore guide like you should be!

Would probably fling more of it off as it exits the muzzle ::)
 
BoydAllen said:
I am going to disagree, as politely as I can, with the proposition that the sole function of a bore (or cleaning rod) guide is to keep solvent out of the action. The only guides that I think are worth using for an accurate rifle that sees a lot of use (and cleaning) have some sort of bushing, or sleeve that goes on the rod, that is designed to perfect the fit of the rod in the guide. These stay on the rod(s) and are plugged into the back of the guide at the point where the brush or jag and patch have entered the chamber. This feature goes a long way toward keeping the rod from rubbing the chamber throat. Lucas, and TK Nolan make excellent guides as well as Neil Jones, who has added the feature as an option to his. For those who may be unfamiliar with the Nolan guide, here is a link to an article. http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/nollan-barrel-saver-rod-guide/
Boyd I don't think I said sole . ;D
But a bore guide really only does that. After the guide the cleaning rod is only centered with the patch or brush and the guide.
After 15'' not a fixed number depending on the rod size and how stiff it is the rod is then guided front and rear and the center off the bore .The more it the rod is pushed forward the longer area the rod is touching the lands. Due to clearance and flex in the rod.
Most cleaning rods are Carbon.
My question is are we wearing the lands in the middle of the barrel ? from the carbon rod. If that is the case we should never push a rod in. Pulling it back would be the best. So a bore snake is a better way of cleaning.
For now I will just keep on cleaning my barrel the same way.
I think their is no correct answer . From the mechanical perspective pushing a flexible rod in will do more damage then any wire brush being pulled. Larry
 
savagedasher said:
BoydAllen said:
I am going to disagree, as politely as I can, with the proposition that the sole function of a bore (or cleaning rod) guide is to keep solvent out of the action. The only guides that I think are worth using for an accurate rifle that sees a lot of use (and cleaning) have some sort of bushing, or sleeve that goes on the rod, that is designed to perfect the fit of the rod in the guide. These stay on the rod(s) and are plugged into the back of the guide at the point where the brush or jag and patch have entered the chamber. This feature goes a long way toward keeping the rod from rubbing the chamber throat. Lucas, and TK Nolan make excellent guides as well as Neil Jones, who has added the feature as an option to his. For those who may be unfamiliar with the Nolan guide, here is a link to an article. http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/nollan-barrel-saver-rod-guide/
Boyd I don't think I said sole . ;D
But a bore guide really only does that. After the guide the cleaning rod is only centered with the patch or brush and the guide.
After 15'' not a fixed number depending on the rod size and how stiff it is the rod is then guided front and rear and the center off the bore .The more it the rod is pushed forward the longer area the rod is touching the lands. Due to clearance and flex in the rod.
Most cleaning rods are Carbon.
My question is are we wearing the lands in the middle of the barrel ? from the carbon rod. If that is the case we should never push a rod in. Pulling it back would be the best. So a bore snake is a better way of cleaning.
For now I will just keep on cleaning my barrel the same way.
I think their is no correct answer . From the mechanical perspective pushing a flexible rod in will do more damage then any wire brush being pulled. Larry
Agreed! +1
 
On the subject of dirty brushes and their potential effects, I suppose that I should mention that a number of years I started doing more with patches before I brush. I short stroke several patches down the barrel before I brush.

On the commonness of carbon fiber rods....I haven not seen many at short range benchrest matches. There, I see coated steel or polished stainless. I do not own a carbon fiber rod. All of my rods are coated, and they get wiped off when they are removed from the barrel, but not between strokes. I have spent a lot of time examining barrels and have never seen any indication that any of mine have suffered from rod contact.

Another thing that I think is worth mentioning is rod technique. It seems to me that the majority are very sloppy with how they stroke their rods. The handle does not stay in line with the CL of the bore, and they have given very little thought to how they do that particular operation, probably because there is little written on the subject. I stand a little farther from the back of the action so that the handle is always in front of my body, and I am reaching at the forward end of my strokes. I stop the rod as soon as the brush or patch emerges, and take care when I reverse the stroke. My pace when cycling the rod is a little slower than seems to be common. When I clean a dirty barrel at home, such as one might have from a long session in the field, I tend to use Wipe Out (bore cleaning foam) more than once, with the second time being overnight, applied just before bed, and removed just after I get up. After I have all of it out of my barrel for the last time, I wet the bore with some Butches, wet a bronze brush and do some brushing, perhaps 10-15 cycles. This is because a friend found that although the foam removed most of the fouling, that there was a little stubborn powder fouling that accumulated over several shooting and cleaning cycles. While the foam did not remove it all, it seemed to make it easier to brush out.

In the game of short range benchrest competition cleaning time is limited. That is why some of the more laborious techniques are not used, that and because shooters know what matters and what does not based on the most important measurement....group size.

Barrels wear, and at some point benefit from being set back and having their crowns touched up. Big deal.
 
When you shoot 1000 yd. BR. you have less time than short range. You sure can't load there, lucky you have time to clean. As far as the middle of the barrel being beat up by the rod, i see no marks on my Ivy rods and i never saw any evidence of this with the bore scope in the last 30+ barrels. If you aren't careful i guess it could happen and not keep the rod centered with the bore at the butt. …. jim
 
I am very new to this and know nothing, like Sargent Schultz, but since there is an advertiser on this site pitching a cleaning product, where does a "Rip Cord" possibly fit into this discussion, or the Remington Rubber Cleaning plugs that you pull through? I use Bronze Brushes and Bore Snakes on all my steel shotgun barrels and the Remington rubber cleaning plugs on my aluminum tubes. Of course much different accuracy considerations.

I have 4 rifles that are unfired, but will be used for long range bench shooting, so I guess I need a lot of new Cleaning Rods, Chamber Guides, Crown Guides (I like the "O" Ring idea on the rod) and things other than Hoppe's No. 9 and some Rem Oil. Do I need "Lint Free" Patches? ;D Is Sinclair my next stop?

Bob
 
johara1 said:
When you shoot 1000 yd. BR. you have less time than short range. You sure can't load there, lucky you have time to clean. As far as the middle of the barrel being beat up by the rod, i see no marks on my Ivy rods and i never saw any evidence of this with the bore scope in the last 30+ barrels. If you aren't careful i guess it could happen and not keep the rod centered with the bore at the butt. …. jim
Jim, take a cleaning rod and push it against a wall etc. There's only a few thou clearance between the bore and a cleaning rod..and it doesn't take much pressure to bend the rod enough to touch the bore. It's almost a given that it will touch, especially with the smaller rods for a 22 or 6mm etc.
That doesn't mean it's hitting it hard, but debris on a rod that just barely touches the bore is still not good.
I'd bet a lot of money that it touches. Obviously, it's not a huge issue very often or they wouldn't shoot like they do.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
johara1 said:
When you shoot 1000 yd. BR. you have less time than short range. You sure can't load there, lucky you have time to clean. As far as the middle of the barrel being beat up by the rod, i see no marks on my Ivy rods and i never saw any evidence of this with the bore scope in the last 30+ barrels. If you aren't careful i guess it could happen and not keep the rod centered with the bore at the butt. …. jim
Jim, take a cleaning rod and push it against a wall etc. There's only a few thou clearance between the bore and a cleaning rod..and it doesn't take much pressure to bend the rod enough to touch the bore. It's almost a given that it will touch, especially with the smaller rods for a 22 or 6mm etc.
That doesn't mean it's hitting it hard, but debris on a rod that just barely touches the bore is still not good.
I'd bet a lot of money that it touches. Obviously, it's not a huge issue very often or they wouldn't shoot like they do.


I wipe it down every pass, no abrasion marks on the rod. I do agree that a lot of barrels are hurt or ruined by improper cleaning. When it looks like they are sawing wood, they are beating it up pretty bad. ……. jim
 
Here's a pic that I borrowed from another site, by Greg Walley of Kelbly's, taken to examine brush damage...or lack thereof. It's important to remember that the land to groove depth is about .004", or the thickness of a human hair. This should put the scratches from brushing in perspective.




Oh, and the pic below it is a similarly magnified picture of a fresh crown(brand new)..again, expertly done by Kelbly's.


UsedCROWN7_zpsaurpjbuz.jpg
sNewCrownc.jpg
 
K22 said:
Sounds good - even sounds right - BUT - I've never followed that laborious method and my precision rifles seemed to have survived 40 years of shooting - of course I've never set any benchrest records either. :( - BUT I've manage to take a ton of groundhogs and predators at some respectable ranges. :)

I think you can make this hobby as painful as you like to give you a sense of well being but I often wonder if some of these laborious procedures really have any value. Still, I guess it's interesting to debate such things. :D

Well said !

Joe
 
zfastmalibu said:
What is important about the crown of a barrel is than it is concentric. By pulling the brush back over the crown there may or may not be any noticeable wear, but it would be concentric. My dashers have show no noticeable degradation of accuracy with over 1k round and LOTS of back and forth brushing.

Z Fast;
Interesting you shoot a "Dasher". I just machined and mailed off two Cartridge boxes for same. An interesting cartridge. In the past, I have built 6 BR's, . The customer ( generously) sent me an empty case to work with. It was a bit of a challenge, as anything of a different nature is, but the finished product turned out very well. Happy to see you shoot one...

Joe
 
jam711 said:
zfastmalibu said:
What is important about the crown of a barrel is than it is concentric. By pulling the brush back over the crown there may or may not be any noticeable wear, but it would be concentric. My dashers have show no noticeable degradation of accuracy with over 1k round and LOTS of back and forth brushing.

Z Fast;
Interesting you shoot a "Dasher". I just machined and mailed off two Cartridge boxes for same. An interesting cartridge. In the past, I have built 6 BR's, . The customer ( generously) sent me an empty case to work with. It was a bit of a challenge, as anything of a different nature is, but the finished product turned out very well. Happy to see you shoot one...

Joe

You should probably keep that pattern since it is most likely the most popular ctg on this site 2:1
 
Speaking of bronze brushes, and concentric contact at the crown, one little trick that I try to remember to do is to straighten new brushes after they are installed on the rod. I turn the rod and bend the brush as needed so that it has as little wobble as possible. Sometimes, when I remember to, I turn the rod a quarter turn or so each time that it clears the muzzle.

On the subject of some of the excellent high magnification pictures of crowns that have been posted in the past, it seemed to me that the patterns may have extended beyond the reach of a brush in some cases.

Another little tip relating to bronze brushes is that they are ground off at the tips of their bristles as they are used. This may be readily seen by new and used brushes. The reason that I mention this is that I have come across more than one fellow who could not figure out why he got more color on his patch after brushing. Of course the answer is that it came from what I call brush dust in the bore. This is why I always follow brushing with at least two wet patches, before giving the solvent time to react with whatever may actually be left in the bore by bullet jackets. Otherwise I would get a false reading.
 

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