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Chasing The Spotter
- Thread starter Hombre0321
- Start date
I have to say I have gotten lazy lately with electronic targets. No having to go down to pull targets, so we chat and socialize more. We also manage to get an extra range in each afternoon as well. With the amount of old shooters over here, it was always us youngsters pulling targets instead of sitting back catching up with other shooters.
Some of the systems here in Australia allow you to scroll over to other targets, and I heard of one shooter having the other targets on 2 iPhones resting against his own target monitor, but it sound too much for me.
On most of our competitions, the electronic targets go into the same target pit frames, but the shooters move back each stage. It only takes a small generator to run and is easy to set up.
While I have had lots of bad shots lately, I have never had bad target service with ETs.
That said, I do like the old manual targets for open competitions as we have paid markers and can see others targets more easily.
$75000 for 8 targets is what my club paid.
Some of the systems here in Australia allow you to scroll over to other targets, and I heard of one shooter having the other targets on 2 iPhones resting against his own target monitor, but it sound too much for me.
On most of our competitions, the electronic targets go into the same target pit frames, but the shooters move back each stage. It only takes a small generator to run and is easy to set up.
While I have had lots of bad shots lately, I have never had bad target service with ETs.
That said, I do like the old manual targets for open competitions as we have paid markers and can see others targets more easily.
$75000 for 8 targets is what my club paid.
Eh, just shoot everyone three to the mound, problem fixed!
FroggyOne2 said:Eh, just shoot everyone three to the mound, problem fixed!
Until you have used ETs you cant see that three to a target is not possible, you cant see the moniter. Not saying that three moniters per target could not be set up the cost then will be the problem. Will still be fast.
I don't think that I was refering to using electronic targets. And personally, don't care to using them anyway. What is this all about speed shooting and getting the match over quickly anyway. Take your time, enjoy the moment, live it!
FroggyOne2 said:I don't think that I was refering to using electronic targets. And personally, don't care to using them anyway. What is this all about speed shooting and getting the match over quickly anyway. Take your time, enjoy the moment, live it!
Don't think that is what this is about at all. The folks like myself who like to shoot fast are not doing that to end the match sooner. It is just as valid a shooting technique as any one else is using. You as a sling shooter Froggy know very well that the sling shooters use all of the time possible, they are always the last one's off the line. It used to be just about the sling shooters in High Power, times have changed today, they are not the only one's on the line any more. Thats a good thing, maybe one day they will realize that.
To me the electronic targets are all about a couple of things. One would be to make Long Range and Mid Range match's available at places without pits. Another thing would be to even out pit service, right now it is the luck of the draw is you get good pit service or something else. There is also always the safety factor, not a big problem, but "NO" problem if there was no body in the pits.
Roland
I can understand the concept of making possible to shoot a match that don't have pits. But the idea of trying to change tradition at certain venues which have pits is what I don't cotton to. Which I have heard a few mention. Not so much here on this forum. But at actual events, I have heard it metioned a few times. Some feel that it would increase participation. Some want it to speed up the match. Now I like the idea of increasing participation, but would rather see it because of tradition. But I feel thhat some have lost that concept.
But remember this, a competitor whom understands your shooting stratigies, pulling a target for you can slow you down and because of that, I could see why one would be pushing for electronic targets. Just sayin.
But remember this, a competitor whom understands your shooting stratigies, pulling a target for you can slow you down and because of that, I could see why one would be pushing for electronic targets. Just sayin.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
wow. did this thread evolve.
I'm personally not crazy about the electronic scoring. As mentioned above I see it as a great advantage to set up ranges w/o pits, and very useful to get in practice if you can't fins a partner to work the pits, (Note that I belong to ORSA and have access to a 1000 yd range pretty much 7 days a week) but for a range with pits not so much.
If I want to shoot rapid fire I'll shoot service rifle. I'd really hate to see the whole of F class shooting have to go to right bolt left or dual port guns so we could hammer our 20 shots in less than a minute. At that point it really does become belly bench rest. If it ever comes to that I'll find another shooting discipline. Maybe then I'd start thinking about that sling and coat thing for long range, or maybe I'll find the time to tune up my casting and my '74 Sharps get into long range BPCR target shooting. Doing it old school like they did at Creedmoor has a certain appeal. (that and I'm pretty stereotypical American guy, bigger it better, and a 535gr cast bullet is about as big as you get)
I'm personally not crazy about the electronic scoring. As mentioned above I see it as a great advantage to set up ranges w/o pits, and very useful to get in practice if you can't fins a partner to work the pits, (Note that I belong to ORSA and have access to a 1000 yd range pretty much 7 days a week) but for a range with pits not so much.
If I want to shoot rapid fire I'll shoot service rifle. I'd really hate to see the whole of F class shooting have to go to right bolt left or dual port guns so we could hammer our 20 shots in less than a minute. At that point it really does become belly bench rest. If it ever comes to that I'll find another shooting discipline. Maybe then I'd start thinking about that sling and coat thing for long range, or maybe I'll find the time to tune up my casting and my '74 Sharps get into long range BPCR target shooting. Doing it old school like they did at Creedmoor has a certain appeal. (that and I'm pretty stereotypical American guy, bigger it better, and a 535gr cast bullet is about as big as you get)
Nicely said Wade!
FroggyOne2 said:But remember this, a competitor whom understands your shooting stratigies, pulling a target for you can slow you down and because of that, I could see why one would be pushing for electronic targets. Just sayin.
As the sling shooters get older they dont want to or cant pull the targets and the younger shooters dont see why they have to do it for every one.
What is tradition are you still using the same rifle you started shooting with or the same ammo i doubt it the equipement has envolved as is the scoring system which means the comfort zone has shifted. I am on the wrong side of 60 wear glasses, shoot F/class and enjoy the challenge and the younger guys enthusiam to solve problems.
FroggyOne2 said:I can understand the concept of making possible to shoot a match that don't have pits. But the idea of trying to change tradition at certain venues which have pits is what I don't cotton to. Which I have heard a few mention. Not so much here on this forum. But at actual events, I have heard it metioned a few times. Some feel that it would increase participation. Some want it to speed up the match. Now I like the idea of increasing participation, but would rather see it because of tradition. But I feel thhat some have lost that concept.
But remember this, a competitor whom understands your shooting stratigies, pulling a target for you can slow you down and because of that, I could see why one would be pushing for electronic targets. Just sayin.
Shooting philosophy, that's cool I like talking philosophy...
Randy, I see that word again coming from you " Tradition". I know this is important to you, and remember well a conversation we had on this subject, and how it applys to "Block Time" another subject from this one but relavant to your wanting to maintain Tradition. I believe sincernly in Tradition and want to see it stick around when it's important. Not sure this is that place though. Not saying it is or isn't just not sure if the pits is the place to put your foot down if there is a better way. Electronic scoring just "MAY" be that better way.
I also don't think electronic scoring would change the time a match lasted by a lot. The only thing time wise it would change is the travel time to and from the pits. These pit changes happen pretty quick at ORSA and Tullahoma were I shoot quite a bit. Speeding that up I am all for anyway. The bottom line is it will happen sometime, I don't think it will be tomorrow or even in the next few years, but that change will come.
Your last comment is very troubling for me. I think what I see in that comment is that a fellow shooter and Competitior could influence the match results for a fast shooter by intenionally pulling his targets slower. Am I right about what you are saying there Randy? If that is what you are saying then all of these sports are done right now. Any low life that would do that is in for a ride if he gets found out thats for sure...
Roland
XTR said:wow. did this thread evolve.
I'm personally not crazy about the electronic scoring. As mentioned above I see it as a great advantage to set up ranges w/o pits, and very useful to get in practice if you can't fins a partner to work the pits, (Note that I belong to ORSA and have access to a 1000 yd range pretty much 7 days a week) but for a range with pits not so much.
If I want to shoot rapid fire I'll shoot service rifle. I'd really hate to see the whole of F class shooting have to go to right bolt left or dual port guns so we could hammer our 20 shots in less than a minute. At that point it really does become belly bench rest. If it ever comes to that I'll find another shooting discipline. Maybe then I'd start thinking about that sling and coat thing for long range, or maybe I'll find the time to tune up my casting and my '74 Sharps get into long range BPCR target shooting. Doing it old school like they did at Creedmoor has a certain appeal. (that and I'm pretty stereotypical American guy, bigger it better, and a 535gr cast bullet is about as big as you get)
XTR, If you want to shoot at a slower pace then that is fine with me and I am sure just about every other F-Class shooter on the planet, no big deal, do it your way.
However in the same vane if I want to shoot as fast as possible, get my shots down range as quick as possible and that is working for me. Then why in hell is that any of your business? I don't care if you like it or not. You didn't come to me and ask for my permission to shoot what ever style you want to, why do you feel like you get a vote on what I am doing?
If shooting fast is in time shown, thru results, that it is an inferior shooting style it will go away all on its own. I don't think that will happen but it could. F-Class will never become Belly Benchrest , I guess that is the new clique word for the shooting sports. They are just to different and nothing at all a like. If one shooting style is "Better" than another, and thats a very big if, the sport will gravitate to that style. That is just the way things work. But to criticize your fellow shooters for something as benign as there shooting style speaks volumns about some of the participants.
Roland
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Hombre0321 said:XTR said:wow. did this thread evolve.
I'm personally not crazy about the electronic scoring. As mentioned above I see it as a great advantage to set up ranges w/o pits, and very useful to get in practice if you can't fins a partner to work the pits, (Note that I belong to ORSA and have access to a 1000 yd range pretty much 7 days a week) but for a range with pits not so much.
If I want to shoot rapid fire I'll shoot service rifle. I'd really hate to see the whole of F class shooting have to go to right bolt left or dual port guns so we could hammer our 20 shots in less than a minute. At that point it really does become belly bench rest. If it ever comes to that I'll find another shooting discipline. Maybe then I'd start thinking about that sling and coat thing for long range, or maybe I'll find the time to tune up my casting and my '74 Sharps get into long range BPCR target shooting. Doing it old school like they did at Creedmoor has a certain appeal. (that and I'm pretty stereotypical American guy, bigger it better, and a 535gr cast bullet is about as big as you get)
XTR, If you want to shoot at a slower pace then that is fine with me and I am sure just about every other F-Class shooter on the planet, no big deal, do it your way.
However in the same vane if I want to shoot as fast as possible, get my shots down range as quick as possible and that is working for me. Then why in hell is that any of your business? I don't care if you like it or not. You didn't come to me and ask for my permission to shoot what ever style you want to, why do you feel like you get a vote on what I am doing?
If shooting fast is in time shown, thru results, that it is an inferior shooting style it will go away all on its own. I don't think that will happen but it could. F-Class will never become Belly Benchrest , I guess that is the new clique word for the shooting sports. They are just to different and nothing at all a like. If one shooting style is "Better" than another, and thats a very big if, the sport will gravitate to that style. That is just the way things work. But to criticize your fellow shooters for something as benign as there shooting style speaks volumns about some of the participants.
Roland
You seem to have read some things that I didn't write, and you say a couple of things that I respectfully disagree with. First of all in case you don't know it I'm a pure F-TR shooter. The only reason I've ever been interested in long range competition is F-class, shooting irons designed for one target just don't do anything for me. Fortunately there are other ways to have fun shooting. We all have our preferences.
[quote author=Hombre0321]However in the same vane if I want to shoot as fast as possible, get my shots down range as quick as possible and that is working for me. Then why in hell is that any of your business? I don't care if you like it or not. You didn't come to me and ask for my permission to shoot what ever style you want to, why do you feel like you get a vote on what I am doing?[/quote]
I never said you needed my permission, nor did I imply that you needed it. My vote would be with my feet. I'd stop shooting F class and shoot something else and leave you to do what ever you wanted. That is unless I ever get in a position to be on a decision making committee, then you may have to deal with my opinion.
[quote author=Hombre0321]F-Class will never become Belly Benchrest[/quote]
Really, tell me other than the group size not mattering and the string being longer what would be the difference? The one HUGE difference in long range BR and F class today is the time it takes to shoot an F class match as opposed to a BR match. If you're looking at a video screen and seeing the hits there is no reason not to shoot it exactly like the BR guys and machine gun it. In my opinion, and it's just that, my opinion, you have become 20 shot BR w/o the bench.
[quote author=Hombre0321]But to criticize your fellow shooters for something as benign as there shooting style speaks volumns about some of the participants.[/quote]
My post in no way criticized you or your style of shooting.
This is an internet BB and people are having a discussion, I did nothing but contribution my opinion. It seems my opinion is different to yours. I have been the victim of bad pit service from time to time. (I can think of 3 that stand out) I think electronic scoring would be a great way to even the field. Black out the screen to the shooter for 10 seconds between shots instead of instant display.
Roland,
I never slow down on a person, but there are some that will if they know is shooting and your strategy game plan, in the hopes that it would give them an advantage.
I have always been known for being very fast on pit duty.
I never slow down on a person, but there are some that will if they know is shooting and your strategy game plan, in the hopes that it would give them an advantage.
I have always been known for being very fast on pit duty.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
At least for F class the other thing that images would do would be to obviate the need for shooting log, at least to see your grouping and I have mixed feelings on that one.
I can attest to several times that I've gone to the pits and looked at my target and seen that my group was 1/8moa high and 1/4 right or left. If you take the time to plot shots you see that, but if you're plotting shots you're taking time, if you're hammering you may not be able to see that happening. It would surely be handy, though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Maybe a scoring system that shows only the current shot?
Will all ranges have to have electronics? Will there have to be two sets or records? Obviously some believe that they can in fact improve their scores with real time electronic scoring, so will there need to be a separate set of National records for scores shot with pullers and scores shot and recorded electronically?
I can attest to several times that I've gone to the pits and looked at my target and seen that my group was 1/8moa high and 1/4 right or left. If you take the time to plot shots you see that, but if you're plotting shots you're taking time, if you're hammering you may not be able to see that happening. It would surely be handy, though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Maybe a scoring system that shows only the current shot?
Will all ranges have to have electronics? Will there have to be two sets or records? Obviously some believe that they can in fact improve their scores with real time electronic scoring, so will there need to be a separate set of National records for scores shot with pullers and scores shot and recorded electronically?
XTR,
I guess I and all of us need to remember that these discussion Boards have an inherent problem and that is we are not face to face. The way we as humans communicate is visual as well as heard or read. Just reading these words it is easy to misunderstand a lot of things, sometimes just the twinkle in a guys eye can determine the intent of the words that follow. Now with that said, as far as I am concerned we all that are commenting on this subject are having a discussion, nothing more. More intent than that, just a discussion, is a big mistake. For me this is not personal, I mean no personal slight in any way. I am going to say what I think and what "I" believe to be an accurate statement, I stand complettly behind my opinions, but I am not so hard headed ( contrary to what my wife tells me) that those opinions cannot be changed. I am hear to learn and want others to contribute there on thoughts no matter were that leads us.
So with that said let me comment on your comment. I could very easily go back and pick what you said and didn't say and respond to each point. That would serve no purpose what so ever in advancing F-Class shooting as a whole, and would result probably in hard feelings becuase of that face to face thing. I am not going to do that.
Lets just agree to disagree until some time that we can set down over a cup of coffee or a beer and talk about our difference's. We do disagree complettly on some of this, I don't see that as a negative, I do see it as a good thing. It would be a sad world if all of us agreed on everything.
Roland
I guess I and all of us need to remember that these discussion Boards have an inherent problem and that is we are not face to face. The way we as humans communicate is visual as well as heard or read. Just reading these words it is easy to misunderstand a lot of things, sometimes just the twinkle in a guys eye can determine the intent of the words that follow. Now with that said, as far as I am concerned we all that are commenting on this subject are having a discussion, nothing more. More intent than that, just a discussion, is a big mistake. For me this is not personal, I mean no personal slight in any way. I am going to say what I think and what "I" believe to be an accurate statement, I stand complettly behind my opinions, but I am not so hard headed ( contrary to what my wife tells me) that those opinions cannot be changed. I am hear to learn and want others to contribute there on thoughts no matter were that leads us.
So with that said let me comment on your comment. I could very easily go back and pick what you said and didn't say and respond to each point. That would serve no purpose what so ever in advancing F-Class shooting as a whole, and would result probably in hard feelings becuase of that face to face thing. I am not going to do that.
Lets just agree to disagree until some time that we can set down over a cup of coffee or a beer and talk about our difference's. We do disagree complettly on some of this, I don't see that as a negative, I do see it as a good thing. It would be a sad world if all of us agreed on everything.
Roland
FroggyOne2 said:Roland,
I never slow down on a person, but there are some that will if they know is shooting and your strategy game plan, in the hopes that it would give them an advantage.
I have always been known for being very fast on pit duty.
Randy,
I will not pretend to tell you anything about what is and is not. I will say this, if you know with certainty that another shooter is in fact doing this and you do not stand up and have something to say to him at least man to man. You by your silence are condoning that behaviour.
Roland
Don't worry about that guy, I provoked him into speeding up. But the thing is, he don't shoot any more either.
FroggyOne2 said:Don't worry about that guy, I provoked him into speeding up. But the thing is, he don't shoot any more either.
Randy,
So in fact you did stand up. You have my respect, and I would have expected you to do that very thing.
Roland
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Viper, my point is that if an F class shooter is given plasma screen with his shots shown and electronically marked in real time, what is to stop him from treating it like BR. The target never moves, he doesn't have to wait for anything. Yes, you don't have a sighter target to switch to, but you take 10 or 15 minutes with unlimited sighters to get the feel for how long a condition lasts then go for record and with a dual port action pump 20 shots in, not in 6 or 7 minutes but in closer to 2 minutes. Many times I've been able to shoot a string of 10s and Xs over a period of 3 or 4 minutes w/o correcting either my hold or my scope. That's what I would not want to see Long Range HP shooting devolve to.
I know it won't work ever time, I know there are conditions that would keep that from working, but I've seen way more windows that lasted 3 min than that lasted 6 minutes.
I know it won't work ever time, I know there are conditions that would keep that from working, but I've seen way more windows that lasted 3 min than that lasted 6 minutes.
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