Chasing The Spotter

[M14AMU]

Also I don't see folks cranking on there scope knobs after they have gone for score much. Maybe beginners and new guys will do this, and I suppose some experienced shooters may do this, I just don't see it. Just to easy to get lost on your corrections using the scope, holding off I think is a much better approach. If they are using valuable time to crank on there scope knobs that would be time much better spent reading the wind.

And that... is very range-dependent. I've seen a few places that not touching your windage knob is not an option - even for F/Open chambered up with 7mm Short Monster. That is, unless you don't mind holding on your neighbor's target - as in both of them.

Shooting Palma on those ranges is best done with liquid-cooled windage knobs and 1/2 moa clicks.

Shooting F/TR with the smaller center on those ranges... is about enough to make you want to go fall on your cleaning rod at the end of the day.

Some days when its switching hard and fast you can get away with waiting for your condition to come back around, and only shooting in 'known' conditions. Other times... there is so much change in speed, velocity, etc. that combined with sucky target service by the time you 'see' what you want, its gone - or your time is running out. I've won - and lost - matches both ways. It happens.

This whole thread is starting to sound like a familiar tune again - the chest-thumping of (former) Service Rifle shooters denigrating anybody who go down shooting irons until they had to move to optics and/or a rest - so I think I'm about done.

memilanuk

"This whole thread is starting to sound like a familiar tune again - the chest-thumping of (former) Service Rifle shooters denigrating anybody who go down shooting irons until they had to move to optics and/or a rest - so I think I'm about done."

Yes sir....you're done! As you've already deduced, I'm one of those (former) Service Rifle shooters however I don't consider myself a 'chest-thumper'...rather and old Vet that enjoys trying to convey onto new shooters a process by which they can improve their marksmanship ability. When I was 20 years of age I had the opportunity to be exposed to....as you so eloquently coined the phrase....those chest-thumping Service Rifle shooters whom were instructing at the USAAMU at Ft. Benning, Georgia and I'm mighty proud that I had enough intellect to listen to what they were telling me because over time what those 'chest-thumpers' taught me helped me win many matches over the next 40 years that I competed...at the Service Rifle level, the Match Rifle category, with a whole lot of Palma shooting in betwixt!!

Here's my deal to you! When I so see fit to inject something into this site concerning marksmanship or anything related to shooting.....YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!!

 

[broncman]

Serious question....

For those that don't make more than 2 click adjustments all day? What do you do? Hold off? Try to shoot in the same wind/condition?

I am very new at long range and have no desire to simply waste money doing stupid things. I have read darn near everything I can get my hands on, but that leaves a lot of questionns at time and their are certainly no "coaches" in my area. So the once a month match, hopefully two this summer is the only time I shoot with "experienced windtalkers".

I simply dont get what they mean when they make comments such as only 2 clicks all day...especially at the two ranges I have shot at early morning when the sun hits mid morning match, I have had to change elevation quite a bit in the few matches I have shot when that happens as the frost or dew burns off etc.

 

[Steve Blair]

Serious question....

For those that don't make more than 2 click adjustments all day? What do you do? Hold off? Try to shoot in the same wind/condition?

I am very new at long range and have no desire to simply waste money doing stupid things. I have read darn near everything I can get my hands on, but that leaves a lot of questionns at time and their are certainly no "coaches" in my area. So the once a month match, hopefully two this summer is the only time I shoot with "experienced windtalkers".

I simply dont get what they mean when they make comments such as only 2 clicks all day...especially at the two ranges I have shot at early morning when the sun hits mid morning match, I have had to change elevation quite a bit in the few matches I have shot when that happens as the frost or dew burns off etc.

[br]
Most F-Class shooters will click elevation to maintain a waterline hold, sometimes shading the elevation a little. My approach to windage is to leave the dial on zero and use the target and my R1 reticle to hold. It is faster than clicking and allows me to hold near the target center for most shots. The downside is that, potentially, it is possible to lose track of which tick I am holding and where. It has not happened yet but is possible. The same applies to spinning the windage dial. It is possible to lose track and take a shot that is not what you think it is. Bottom line: pay attention when shooting and track your changes.

 

[clowdis]

Serious question....

For those that don't make more than 2 click adjustments all day? What do you do? Hold off? Try to shoot in the same wind/condition?

That's probably a shooters exageration when they really mean maybe two clicks in a match. You need a range with very mild wind conditions to do that and still remain competitive. What they are really doing is shooting in one condition and not trying to shoot in every wind change that comes along. If you're trying to shoot in right wind/left wind then you're going to click a lot and probably going to miss a couple of calls. At Butner we have a lot of fishtailing wind and if you want to get some experience then you can try clicking to keep up with it. Most will pick a condition and shoot in that condition, thus only using a couple of clicks to get through a relay. Clear as mud?

 

[6BRinNZ]

Serious question....

For those that don't make more than 2 click adjustments all day? What do you do? Hold off? Try to shoot in the same wind/condition?

I am very new at long range and have no desire to simply waste money doing stupid things. I have read darn near everything I can get my hands on, but that leaves a lot of questions at time and their are certainly no "coaches" in my area. So the once a month match, hopefully two this summer is the only time I shoot with "experienced windtalkers".

I simply dont get what they mean when they make comments such as only 2 clicks all day...especially at the two ranges I have shot at early morning when the sun hits mid morning match, I have had to change elevation quite a bit in the few matches I have shot when that happens as the frost or dew burns off etc.

Broncman - you may already be past this point but Germans blog changed my way of thinking and what I was looking for...IMO it compliments nicely the two books....

The blog joined the dots for me and once I realised I needed to start looking at the cycles of the wind I suddenly realised that a key piece was understanding where I was in the wind cycle....I may not yet have the experience to properly estimate the value but I was a long way down the track to understanding when to start and stop (goes to how much/often you click or hold).

IMO the books and shooting in general put a huge amount of emphasis on being able to make "absolute" wind calls but at this point in my journey (everything is subject to change as experience builds ) IMO that ability is best applied on top of understanding where you are in the wind cycle.

 

[Steve Blair]

That's probably a shooters exageration when they really mean maybe two clicks in a match. You need a range with very mild wind conditions to do that and still remain competitive. What they are really doing is shooting in one condition and not trying to shoot in every wind change that comes along. If you're trying to shoot in right wind/left wind then you're going to click a lot and probably going to miss a couple of calls. At Butner we have a lot of fishtailing wind and if you want to get some experience then you can try clicking to keep up with it. Most will pick a condition and shoot in that condition, thus only using a couple of clicks to get through a relay. Clear as mud?

[br]
I've shot in very heavy wind conditions and never touched the windage dial. Shot both sides of switches and, sometimes, shot through switches. At the recent Berger Nationals, I shot an X while holding 5½ MOA with the reticle and target. I shot otherwise very poorly on that string, but it had nothing to do with the way I held. I also saw some outstanding Butner shooters hammered on Saturday. Enough wind will eventually get anyone. [br]
At Camp Pendleton, my home range, we always have a switching, turbulent headwind on Range 117. Headwinds are a PITA to work and scores reflect that. In my memory, only one 20 shot clean has been fired on 117 at 1000. Gary Eliseo shot an excellent 200-11X last September 30. I shot 199-9X on the same relay, but that is not clean.

 

[lal357]

at my club matches we shoot 300yrds on mr-63 targets we dont have a pit so we shoot 5 spotters on a shoot-n-see target below then 20 for record. next pull the targets and score they give you the targets and you have 2 spotters to adjust then another 20 . you really have to know where your hitting or you will drop points like crazy (happened to me the last match ). on our club vers. club matches it runs about the same way but no spotters on the 2nd string we figure if you are on the team you already know your rifle and should be able to go off of your first target.

 

[dblinden]

I meant it when I said this was a good discussion.

I have never shot a service rifle and would probably hurt myself if I thumped my chest.

Re-reading my note, I should have said I was shooting iron sights. I have never shot a scope on a centerfire rifle, only in smallbore competitions and rarely then. If shooting scope, I would definitely be shading and not clicking at all once zeroed. I don't believe I would even trust my scope to return to same setting and I just know that I would completely lose track of clicks left and right if I did make those continual sight adjustments.

I was referring to yesterday's match with strong winds AND rapidly switching directions. Clowdis said it much better than me. I waited for my single condition and shot that. With switching winds, isn't it going to come back? That's why you need time. If you shoot fast and condition is same, of course that is good. I was referring to many people I observed shooting fast regardless of the conditions.

More of a problem with slow switching conditions where one condition lasts for a sustained period followed by a change to another lasting condition. In that situation, you need to have computed the correction for a second condition. Then, you can shoot in either and not worry when or if the first is going to come back around. If you are not yet proficient at determining the value of a wind condition, look at the result of your no wind zero on sighters as conditions change (learn something from each sighter) or watch some targets of others and see the effect of the shot deflection when they don't correct or don't see something happening.

If you want to chase the spotter in rapidly changing wind conditions, have at it. My point is that those people learned very little, all talked about how hard the wind was all day, and had poor score results.

Dennis L

 

[broncman]

Oak Ridge was different than Butner but I know the principles are the same. I really like the range itself and the wide open layout at Butner. Oak ridge has the range available for practice to members.

Seeing it is half the diatance of Butner and I can drive their for practice each week, I plan on joining.

I really want to hold x ring with a no wind zero and watch the effects of the conditions I see translate to the target. Then I can assign a actual drift to what I see.
I can see the mirage in the spotter scope, even see it change. If it is small, I score decent for me. I just need to learn the differnce between 1-2 & 3-4 shifts.


Ken

 

[6BRinNZ]

I meant it when I said this was a good discussion.

I would definitely be shading and not clicking at all once zeroed. I don't believe I would even trust my scope to return to same setting and I just know that I would completely lose track of clicks left and right if I did make those continual sight adjustments.
Dennis L

Its interesting for sure - another perspective....when I first started I only ever held off as it was just too much to read what was going on click it and fire - much easier to make an estimation, hold off and fire....until one day at 1k the winds were tough and shooting a 6BR I was holding a lot and trying to hold 2-3 minutes greater or less was a tough job...I needed to get the shot away fast as well or the wind would have moved on....this combined with the fact that holding didn't give me as precise an understanding of what the wind has doing...

So I started clicking - sure scope choice is important here as repeatability is a must. The thing is, I now have two approaches in my tool kit...typically I click and go....I did however shoot a match at 500 not so long ago where the wind was moving so fast that I had no hope of keeping up with clicking (maybe if you were real good you would click on where the wind was going to) so under those conditions I held and fired...dropped 3 points but was more than happy with the result...

Just reinforces to me - build your starting discipline and approach - but work on strategies and approaches to deal with the day.....

 

[Immike]

There is something I have noticed over time is the hesitation by most shooters to make full value adjustments from the sighters . Holding off the center makes a novice shooter hesitate and lose points starting out. It is very important to make the first shots valuable information and to act immediately upon it.

 

[Hombre0321]

Another thing that has not come up, maybe because none of us like to even think about it. That is just making a bad shot, sometimes we just toss one out there and cannot figure what happened. If you are Chasing the spotter and not calling your shots at the same time, any shooter may just chase that bad shot. Doing this you can get lost and quick and could take 5,6 or maybe even 7 shots to back were you were, simply because you weren't aware of what you had just done.

I certainly have made that bad shot from time to time, and I know I am not alone in that. I have taught myself to call every shot, sometimes I can do this with very good accuracy, somedays I'm just off in that.

Roland

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

I compete in FTR and i never shot with a sling (will do someday to complete my experience) I don't envy anything to the sling guys on my wind reading ability.

From where i live (Canada) we shoot two or three to a mount. So at first, you put all your energy at reading wind. With experience then you add strategy (manage the bull among other things). on 15 shots, it is rare to have more than 3 shots with the same windage. So Read, adjust and take the shot.

I experienced string shooting in Camp Perry and i have to admit, my string shooting strategy wasn't good at first, and i could say that priority is to the strategy rather than wind reading. Just wait the condition and chase the spotter when it is small change. It is very similar to team match shooting. I don't say that the top guys don't know how to read wind. But Honestly i prefer wind reading and it is why i think you should just go with Squadding (two to a mount) then you would be forced to learn how to read wind. And it would keep it like it.

If you want to try, come this summer, see the other thread: Canadian Eastern F-Class Championship.

Kenny Proulx

 

[DRNewcomb]

The best match for not chasing spotters is Infantry Team Trophy (a.k.a. Rattle Battle). All rapid fire, no spotters. Your team's coach has to call 'em by their trails through a pair of standard binoculars and you have to make the windage adjustments while shooting. Most fun you can have with your clothes on!

 

[M14AMU]

The best match for not chasing spotters is Infantry Team Trophy (a.k.a. Rattle Battle). All rapid fire, no spotters. Your team's coach has to call 'em by their trails through a pair of standard binoculars and you have to make the windage adjustments while shooting. Most fun you can have with your clothes on!

I was doing that PROBABLY....a very long time before you were even a gleam in your Dad's eye!!

 

[DRNewcomb]

The best match for not chasing spotters is Infantry Team Trophy (a.k.a. Rattle Battle). All rapid fire, no spotters. Your team's coach has to call 'em by their trails through a pair of standard binoculars and you have to make the windage adjustments while shooting. Most fun you can have with your clothes on!

I was doing that PROBABLY....a very long time before you were even a gleam in your Dad's eye!!

It's good to see someone still active in shooting well into his 80s and 90s.

 

[M14AMU]

The best match for not chasing spotters is Infantry Team Trophy (a.k.a. Rattle Battle). All rapid fire, no spotters. Your team's coach has to call 'em by their trails through a pair of standard binoculars and you have to make the windage adjustments while shooting. Most fun you can have with your clothes on!

I was doing that PROBABLY....a very long time before you were even a gleam in your Dad's eye!!

It's good to see someone still active in shooting well into his 80s and 90s.

Oh...so you're an OLD PHART to!!

 

[Steve Blair]

Oh...so you're an OLD PHART to!!

[br]
We're all old farts. Some are still in training.

 

[Hombre0321]

I compete in FTR and i never shot with a sling (will do someday to complete my experience) I don't envy anything to the sling guys on my wind reading ability.

From where i live (Canada) we shoot two or three to a mount. So at first, you put all your energy at reading wind. With experience then you add strategy (manage the bull among other things). on 15 shots, it is rare to have more than 3 shots with the same windage. So Read, adjust and take the shot.

I experienced string shooting in Camp Perry and i have to admit, my string shooting strategy wasn't good at first, and i could say that priority is to the strategy rather than wind reading. Just wait the condition and chase the spotter when it is small change. It is very similar to team match shooting. I don't say that the top guys don't know how to read wind. But Honestly i prefer wind reading and it is why i think you should just go with Squadding (two to a mount) then you would be forced to learn how to read wind. And it would keep it like it.

If you want to try, come this summer, see the other thread: Canadian Eastern F-Class Championship.

Kenny Proulx

Kenny, Man sometime you gotts tell us were that handle of yours comes from ( orangekenny).

To comment on your above post. I have never shot in Canada or the UK were you guys shoot this two and three shooters to a target. Here in the states as I am sure you are aware we do this one guy thing. Chasing the spotter is not possible for you guys, you are forced by the format to learn the wind or just not be competitive.
Bob Pastor my mentor used to shoot regularly in Canada and this past Canadian Championship I believe he took the overall aggregate for the 10 days ( I believe it is 10 days). He has explaned this type of shooting to me in many conversations we have had. If there was any one rule that we "Could" change here in the US that is the one I would like very much to have implemented. This is tough shooting, and I understand sometimes there is something like a 45 second rule ( maybe you could explane that Kenny). If we here in the US really wanted to see a big improvement in F-Class shooting "Skills" this type format would do that real quick.

If you would Kenny share some of your thoughts on this type of shooting...

Roland

 

[6BRinNZ]

If we here in the US really wanted to see a big improvement in F-Class shooting "Skills" this type format would do that real quick.
If you would Kenny share some of your thoughts on this type of shooting...

Roland

just shoot with slow pit service under the current rules