Chasing The Spotter

[kelbro]

About poor pit service... Let's just face it. A lot of guys in this sport are past their 'athletic prime' and they are not or cannot work that target frame quickly.

Yes, I have seen a few dawdlers in the pits but most try to get the job done as quick as they are able.

If you absolutely positively need fast pitting, do as some do and hire a puller.

 

[LRCampos]

Memilanuk,

On ranges that have electronic targets, we don't change yardages... we shoot from one position only. And the targets are moved away as needed, with frames and electronic system.
Usually, it is easier to move targets, than moving shooters, monitors etc.
This is my experience with shooting ranges with electronic targets (Swiss made electronic targets installed on military shooting ranges).

Lets face it... for the most part, electronic targets were developed for ISSF matches. Not NRA style matches, or at least, not scoped guns and not on open ranges where we can get rain, snow etc. That's the way most of the of the ISSF matches are run.

But the other problem you mentioned, not be able to see other shooter targets... well, it is true. Unless there is a big screen behind shooters where all targets/shooters/points are scored in real time.

For F-Class, I still don't know any perfect electronic target system. But I think it is a matter of time... and in a few years (may be 5 or 10), most long range clubs will have some kind of electronic target systems.

LRCampos.

 

[flatlander]

Roland,
I received my Bullseye Target Camera system yesterday. Spent a few minutes setting it up in the basement so I could shoot my Walther LGR air rifle and see how it works. Though I was told when ordering that it doesn't have a hi def camera, I was still disappointed with the picture quality. I'm wondering if it gets any better outdoors in sunlight? I have CFC lights in the basement - could those lights be less than ideal for this purpose?

Whatever - the software worked as advertised, and the unit was easy to set up. Realistically, I wasn't expecting sharp-as-a-tack picture quality at this price point, but would still like to see better quality. Match air rifle pellets cut nice, sharp, easily seen holes, but the camera was having trouble resolving them.

Don't want it to sound as though I'm bashing the Bullseye system before calling them to ask for guidance, and will wait for better weather so I can get it set up outdoors and see how it performs there. Even if I decide to send it back and build something with a higher quality camera, it's going to be tough to come up with shot recognition software that'll do what the Bullseye program does.

 

[Hombre0321]

flatlander, Remember I am just a guy who bought one of these sysytems. Picture quality on mine is pretty good, I have never tried it inside so ( Maybe ) that is your problem or at least some of it. I do believe that Bullseys the company will work with you. The leave me with the impresson that they will work with any problems that come up.

Now with that said I also had problems with my system this weekend, trying to use it for a Local F-Class fun match were we do not have pits. Ended up not using it at all and put it back in the case, so I have bugs already that need some tweeking.
Roland

 

[memilanuk]

On ranges that have electronic targets, we don't change yardages... we shoot from one position only. And the targets are moved away as needed, with frames and electronic system.
Usually, it is easier to move targets, than moving shooters, monitors etc.

Sounds great... unless you already have an existing infrastructure - like pretty much every HP range that I've seen that doesn't do walk-n-paste matches - with fixed pits and multiple firing lines. Personally I'd have some concerns with the 'impact area' being varying distances behind the actual targets.

Lets face it... for the most part, electronic targets were developed for ISSF matches. Not NRA style matches, or at least, not scoped guns and not on open ranges where we can get rain, snow etc. That's the way most of the of the ISSF matches are run.

I know, I get that. For some reason everybody else in the USA seems bound and determined to run like a pack of lemmings off this particular cliff in the process of adopting something 'new'...

But the other problem you mentioned, not be able to see other shooter targets... well, it is true. Unless there is a big screen behind shooters where all targets/shooters/points are scored in real time.

...doesn't really help me the shooter very much if there is a big screen behind me - which was kind of my point

I'm not totally against the whole concept, despite how it might appear I just think the existing systems that are even remotely compatible with this sport (HP Rifle) in its current form are hideously expensive and/or have some hidden 'gotchas' that may be problematic when it comes to scaling up or down to different size matches. I have no doubt those problems probably *can* be worked through... but none of the solutions I've seen thrown out there so far address everything satisfactorily.

The one thing I see that could really drive this would be if there was some sort of serious accident involving personnel in the pit area, with subsequent litigation - at which point I could very easily see ranges going to electronic targets for liability reasons regardless of other concerns.

 

[rvn1968]

EVERY U.S.Marine had (has) to qualify on the range.Half of your range time was trigger time and the rest in the pit,it works when done right. Semper Fi,Tom.

 

[Hombre0321]

Tom, That's the way it works now, and works well, when there are pits.

The whole conversation of some form of electronic system, I believe came about for those places that don't have pits. I shot a "modified" 600 yd F-Class match this past weekend. It was an experiment to see if we could find a way to have feedback from the target.

Turned out OK and we did get the match shot but it did have some bugs. We had two video systems and that would cover the 5 targets ( only could shoot 5 at a time on this range). One system was my own Bullseye System and the other was a true video system. We had problems with both of these and ended up not using either one. What we did was turn the 600yd Mid Range target around backwards and on the white side put a 3" X ring aiming disc. Then we scored the targets from the black side. Worked pretty well seeing the bullet hits on the white paper at 600 yds. of course there were times when the mirage gave all of the shooters the fits but we did get it done.

Shooting an F-Class match with no feedback from the target is not F-Class at all it truly is belly benchrest so why bother and just shoot it from the bench? This range is located in a part of Alabama were there is a huge interest in shooting F-Class, as an example we had 31 shooters show up and the only advertising anyone did for this match was person to person or on the phone. This is also a private range with a owner that shoots and is interested in getting this to work. The closest Sanctioned match is 400 miles away. We will in time find a way to make this work.

Guys electronic systems are coming to F-Class at some point and time. I don't know when but they will come. A few years ago I was shooting registered Trap matches. All Trap shooters complained mostly about the pullers at these events, and some clubs holding registered match's had people stay away because of the pullers they hired or used. There was a couple of electronic Microphone controlled systems but they were very expensive, and when a club running a Trap Shoot had to have one for each trap field we could be talking a lot of money. There were plenty of shooters however who found something wrong with any new idea that came along. The ATA ( sanctioning body for organized trap) is a much more progressive and open to new ideas type of organization than the NRA is. The researched the idea of a voice call system. In working with a couple of these company's they did come up with an affordable system and today it is hard to find any registered Trap Shoot that doesn't use one.

This same thing will happen to High Power shooting, its not a matter of if but when.

Roland

 

[Rtheurer]

I agree. I have been using the SUIS ASCOR bullet sensor since 2007. Shooting thousands of rounds on it from 200 to 600 yards. It works wonderfully without any hickups. Its remote so I just move the head unit with me from yard line to yard line.
The product is out there and it WORKS but the cost just needs to come down for the clubs to be able to afford it... And more importantly MAINTAIN the system.
Best target service yo uwill ever have....

RussT

 

[Travelor]

Russ, we at Benton Gun Club looked into an electronic target system one time and the cost for 4 targets was around $750,000 for installation, training and setup.

Hopefully the cost has reduced but this is WAY our of the range of "average" ranges.

Second, what is up with the wind reading class?

George T

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

To answer the squadding question: for TR (sling guys it is 60 sec. but for F-class we cut it at 45sec to take the shot (each) with a max time for entire relay. So first, you exchange scoring card, soon as the target is up on your buddy shot, you call his score, he confirm by thanking you (we wait this signal before shooting) and you put it down on the card, then you read the wind, make adjustment and take the shot. Some of us, do shoot soon as your buddy call Thank you, to take advantage of a steady condition. So it is you buddy to call score...Best things is to try it!! Come see us!

Russ, we at Benton Gun Club looked into an electronic target system one time and the cost for 4 targets was around $750,000 for installation, training and setup.

Hopefully the cost has reduced but this is WAY our of the range of "average" ranges.

Second, what is up with the wind reading class?

George T

I did a fairly deep research on Electronic target, as part of an executive of my Rifle Association in Quebec. Canadian Forces from whom our shooting range is borrowed, decided to remove in next year conventional lift mecanism to pull target to install electronic pop-up target system. So we HAVE to make a move. In North America, it is not common for us yet to put that much money in a target system but i really belieive in it. So i finally decided to be Canadian Distributor for KONGSBERG TARGET SYSTEM. The system that, in my opinion, is the more adequate for Long Range Shooting. All Open system (where sensors are on the outside) have a lot accuracy issue, because sound is drifted with the wind and cheat on the triangulation. My web site is still in construction phase, but it will answer a lot of question.

Each setup can be different, but to give an idea of price:
-A rugged monitor that can work under rain or minus 40 degree celcius and be use for ten years cost 4500$,
-a less expensive one that can work under cover (roof) is 2500$,
-a LR target can cost around 2500-3000$.
-You need a system that can drive all target with a LR radio inside a peli case for both target line and monitor : cost 12000$ total

So a 8 targets system is pretty much 75000$

These price change all the time because of Norwegian Kroner is fluctuating and it is the manifacturer devise.

We have to realise that with electronic, it is way faster, efficient and less false miss!

It is definitely gonna change the membership and competition fee, but it is not a deal breaker...

For more info soon you will be able to go on my web site www.electronictargetscanada.com


James: Hope to see you at the Canadian Eastern Championship!! Really Enjoy you guys!

Kenny

 

[LRCampos]

.

Kenny, does your system uses paper targets or soft "rubber" tissue?

My question is related as to: is there any point of aim (X, 10 rings etc) or a big black circle as usual on electronic targets made for iron sights?


LRCampos.

 

[memilanuk]

I'm pretty sure that Kongsberg setup looks exactly like what they used @ Blair Atholl when we shot there. Maybe LaurieUK can confirm?

I will say one thing that *was* really nice was the decimal scoring i.e. if you had a '10' closer to the X-ring line it has a lower decimal value than if it was a 'wide' 10 i.e. '10.1' vs. '10.9'. USA NRA HP scoring rules aren't really setup to where it would make any difference in the overall score, but it is interesting from a viewing stand point.

IIRC, these targets use the rubber membrane backer... and I *believe* there were scoring lines on the target face suitable for holding off ala F-Class. They appeared to be very rugged gear, both the monitors and the pit gear.

I might have to check into the cost for these things after all. I'm not a big fan of 'em (obviously), but I'm fully willing to admit it might be just that they're 'new' (to us). Our local range may be in a situation where it'll be necessary to move our HP rifle range... and the cost of rebuilding pits with proper accommodations, etc. rather than the ramshackle 50+ year-old affair that we currently have might make going with electronic targets worthwhile.

 

[Bindi2]

You guys should come down to Australia and have a look at the several systems that we have been using for several years
My club shot 700,800,and 900yds on Sunday starting at 9am and finished in time for a Midday BBQ. 3 electronic targets 15 shooters F Class an TR. The TR shooters are slower than the F Class shooters. The target maintence is a little more finnicky but do it right and often (know the number of shots were things start to show signs of inconsistency and replace the shot out centre). There is a discussion down here that there should be a delay put in the system to stop fast shooting. I am strongly against this. The wind readers are starting to come second to the speedsters who do it all faster. We all shoot on the same centres just score the values differently

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

.

Kenny, does your system uses paper targets or soft "rubber" tissue?

My question is related as to: is there any point of aim (X, 10 rings etc) or a big black circle as usual on electronic targets made for iron sights?


LRCampos.

It is a frame with two rubber membrane cover by foam board and coreflute to isolate from temperature and sound. Creating an isolated acoustic chamber. Because bullets are damaging the center part of all this, we use a rubber band, that we can shift to maintain chamber integrity. For f-Class, some are just draw the circle line with a white paint marker on rubber band as a aiming mark. I personnally cut the a circle in a black coreflute of the good dimension according to the distance and velcro it to the target. I am testing some brownish natural rubber glued to the center with the conventional black rubber, so the aiming mark is intact for a long time. No need to reface all the time like paper. I also have some white rubber from roofing industry to test. See pic

You guys should come down to Australia and have a look at the several systems that we have been using for several years
My club shot 700,800,and 900yds on Sunday starting at 9am and finished in time for a Midday BBQ. 3 electronic targets 15 shooters F Class an TR. The TR shooters are slower than the F Class shooters. The target maintence is a little more finnicky but do it right and often (know the number of shots were things start to show signs of inconsistency and replace the shot out centre). There is a discussion down here that there should be a delay put in the system to stop fast shooting. I am strongly against this. The wind readers are starting to come second to the speedsters who do it all faster. We all shoot on the same centres just score the values differently

By adopting Squadding (alternate shooter) it would all be solved!!!

Kenny

 

[6BRinNZ]

There is a discussion down here that there should be a delay put in the system to stop fast shooting. I am strongly against this. The wind readers are starting to come second to the speedsters who do it all faster. We all shoot on the same centres just score the values differently

By adopting Squadding (alternate shooter) it would all be solved!!!

Kenny

and so the sport evolves - I quite like it the way it is...oh well.

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

Shooting is not all about reading wind, but i think that what make Long range shooting different than other discipline is wind reading. Competition are made to compare ourselves and our ability to perform. So i would prefer to keep wind reading, the main thing.

Kenny

 

[Bindi2]

We shoot one shooter at a time squading wont slow the speeders down unless you squad a TR and a FC together and that would be a logistical night mare. Also the moniter is not user friendly for more than one shooter at a time. There is no watching the next door target you are on your own for every shot. You control you make the discision you fire with absolutely no help or hinderence.

 

[memilanuk]

Put the monitor between the shooters where both can see it... works just fine. Forcing the shooters to slow down a fuzz and have to read the wind between each shot rather than just set up, wait on one conditions and pound the rounds down range as fast as possible is part of what separates this from Benchrest...

 

[6BRinNZ]

I might have misinterpreted but I assumed the squadding was a reference to "Bisley style" shooting, where string shooting isn't used.

Personally I quite like the mix of mirage, flags, other competitors spotters and speed (tempered by pit service) all coming together.

 

[Cochran]

''Personally I quite like the mix of mirage, flags, other competitors spotters and speed (tempered by pit service) all coming together.''

I agree.
Make it four relays with two markers/pullers on every target to lessen the chances of bad service and its perfect.