[br]6BRinNZ said:
just shoot with slow pit service under the current rules
Yes, one string I shot in the CA State LR was with a 45 second rule. I was not allowed to shoot any faster than one shot per 45 seconds due to pit service.
Chasing The Spotter
- Thread starter Hombre0321
- Start date
Yes, one string I shot in the CA State LR was with a 45 second rule. I was not allowed to shoot any faster than one shot per 45 seconds due to pit service.
Va Jim
Gold $$ Contributor
Kenny if my memory is correct once the sun came out at Camp Perry you seemed to do quite well. Although we don't shoot two to the mound much down here we do have a lot of very tricky ranged that force you to read the wind. Some do better with mirage and some do better with flags. This is one reason I try to travel as much as I can to shoot. This way it force you to learn all conditions and all indicators. I am trying to get to the Eastern Canadian match this year to experience more pair firing. Haven't met a finer bunch of guys last year at Camp Perry.
On a side note The Sinclair International East Coast Fullbore Nationals is just a few weeks away.
Va Jim
James Crofts
On a side note The Sinclair International East Coast Fullbore Nationals is just a few weeks away.
Va Jim
James Crofts
6BRinNZ said:Hombre0321 said:
just shoot with slow pit service under the current rules
Roland - I was a little facetious in my response - but I quite like your sentiment as I feel strategy has a part to play. I practise against fast and slow markers in my club days to refine my techniques, approaches, way of thinking etc etc. The rules in F-class are unlikely to change but I will have to deal with fast and slow marking. Slow marking and the time limits may mean I can't pick my start and stop points but have to make my best assessment and get the shot underway. I figure practicing against a slow marker means I can salvage points in the important comps should the situation arise...almost guaranteed on multiday comps. At the very least I have worked on my mental composure....guys get frustrated and impatient and start to throw points away.
6brNZ,
I hear you, and I think you are correct frustration with the pit service can certainly lead to dropping points if you let it get to you.
I shoot my relays very fast, and that leads me to relate this story. last year I was shooting a 1,000 yd match in Oak Ridge,Tn. I was squadded with a guy I had never met before. Oak Ridge shoots three man relays, thus One shooting, one pulling and one scoring. This guy shot first and then went to the pits for his duty there. I then was next up. I shot a regular relay for me, sighter shots about 8 or so and my 20 shots for record, My pit service was OK the guy was slow but I made it thorough fine, and was thru shooting in 6 minutes or so ( I did say I shoot fast) I scored a 198 12x and I called three shots out in very tricky conditions. I was a happy guy.
Then this guy comes back from the pits to shoot his relay. Man I gotta tell you I have not ever heard such a tirade on a rifle range, this dude was pissed plan and simple. His main complaint was how fast I shot that relay, he said "I come out here to relax, and I have never heard of anyone shooting so fast" I complained that it was just too much work pulling for anyone who shot that fast, and this was his weekend to have fun Etc, Etc and Etc.
I explained to him that one thing was certain and that he didn't have to work all that hard for very long, and that he got to set on his butte for probably 24 minutes straight. It didn't seem to help his composure very much though.
You do bring up a great point. Slow pit service is going to happen from time to time, no doubt about that. It is very important to maintain your concentration and focus when this happens. Just "Not"letting it get to you is the thing. I am guilty I am afraid of it getting to me way to much sometimes, that is my fault, the pit service is going to be what it is.
Roland
I hear you, and I think you are correct frustration with the pit service can certainly lead to dropping points if you let it get to you.
I shoot my relays very fast, and that leads me to relate this story. last year I was shooting a 1,000 yd match in Oak Ridge,Tn. I was squadded with a guy I had never met before. Oak Ridge shoots three man relays, thus One shooting, one pulling and one scoring. This guy shot first and then went to the pits for his duty there. I then was next up. I shot a regular relay for me, sighter shots about 8 or so and my 20 shots for record, My pit service was OK the guy was slow but I made it thorough fine, and was thru shooting in 6 minutes or so ( I did say I shoot fast) I scored a 198 12x and I called three shots out in very tricky conditions. I was a happy guy.
Then this guy comes back from the pits to shoot his relay. Man I gotta tell you I have not ever heard such a tirade on a rifle range, this dude was pissed plan and simple. His main complaint was how fast I shot that relay, he said "I come out here to relax, and I have never heard of anyone shooting so fast" I complained that it was just too much work pulling for anyone who shot that fast, and this was his weekend to have fun Etc, Etc and Etc.
I explained to him that one thing was certain and that he didn't have to work all that hard for very long, and that he got to set on his butte for probably 24 minutes straight. It didn't seem to help his composure very much though.
You do bring up a great point. Slow pit service is going to happen from time to time, no doubt about that. It is very important to maintain your concentration and focus when this happens. Just "Not"letting it get to you is the thing. I am guilty I am afraid of it getting to me way to much sometimes, that is my fault, the pit service is going to be what it is.
Roland
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
I shoot either way, depending on what the match rules and actual conditions allow.
Last month I shot a 3/5/600 Fullbore match at our home range, and the next weekend a 2x1000 @ Rattlesnake Mountain (closest 1k KD range to me).
In the fullbore match, since it was such a small event we ended up squadded three-to- a-mound. Just a local Approved match, so the scores don't count for much, but I was pretty pleased with seven X's back to back shooting three-to-a-mound, especially with that itty-bitty x-ring.
The next weekend I shot the first string trying to be careful and watch the conditions, etc. Plain and simple, the conditions were pretty bad - 18-22mph winds, at an angle where you couldn't get a good read on the flags for angle... I was having to *listen* to how much the wind noise increased or decreased and favor accordingly. Scores... were interesting, but not unexpected considering. The second relay I saw was going to be more of the same, so when I finished my sighters I told my scorer "Try to keep up", and proceeded to let the brass fly. Given the conditions... it was the right decision. Bobbled a few to elevation from shooting fast, but the points dropped there made up for getting the string done before the wind *shifted* in a major way, throwing even an experienced sling shooter (firing a 6.5-284) off the paper...
Gotta learn to be flexible... some times you start out doing things one way and it just ain't working. Rather than sit there getting kicked in the head, change up and try something different. It just might help
Last month I shot a 3/5/600 Fullbore match at our home range, and the next weekend a 2x1000 @ Rattlesnake Mountain (closest 1k KD range to me).
In the fullbore match, since it was such a small event we ended up squadded three-to- a-mound. Just a local Approved match, so the scores don't count for much, but I was pretty pleased with seven X's back to back shooting three-to-a-mound, especially with that itty-bitty x-ring.
The next weekend I shot the first string trying to be careful and watch the conditions, etc. Plain and simple, the conditions were pretty bad - 18-22mph winds, at an angle where you couldn't get a good read on the flags for angle... I was having to *listen* to how much the wind noise increased or decreased and favor accordingly. Scores... were interesting, but not unexpected considering. The second relay I saw was going to be more of the same, so when I finished my sighters I told my scorer "Try to keep up", and proceeded to let the brass fly. Given the conditions... it was the right decision. Bobbled a few to elevation from shooting fast, but the points dropped there made up for getting the string done before the wind *shifted* in a major way, throwing even an experienced sling shooter (firing a 6.5-284) off the paper...
Gotta learn to be flexible... some times you start out doing things one way and it just ain't working. Rather than sit there getting kicked in the head, change up and try something different. It just might help
memilanuk said:I shoot either way, depending on what the match rules and actual conditions allow.
Gotta learn to be flexible... some times you start out doing things one way and it just ain't working. Rather than sit there getting kicked in the head, change up and try something different. It just might help
Yeah - I have had plenty of relays this last year where the choice is to start the relay picking my shots and slow firing (In NZ we only get two sighters per relay) - and then that little "wind window" blows through and a condition is holding for 2 or 3 minutes - switch it up and fire fast, sometimes the change in pattern catches the markers out but if a good marker is on it can make a big difference.
I do wonder if the F-class mantra of "keep it in the pits" can be a little misleading and "keep it flexible" is much better
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
sleepygator said:[br]6BRinNZ said:
just shoot with slow pit service under the current rules
Yes, one string I shot in the CA State LR was with a 45 second rule. I was not allowed to shoot any faster than one shot per 45 seconds due to pit service.
Funny, that's how the 600 yard league I was in the last couple of years handicapped shooters. It seemed intentional at least. Some of us regularly had pit disservice that took 2 minutes to get the target back in the air. In the end, it didn't change the outcomes. All the top shooters got the treatment, and it cost them all about the same number of points.
By the same token, it really improved my ability to take that "cold" shot after getting stopped on a string (I regularly rip off 5-7 shots when conditions favor then wait for the condition to return). Sometimes, we all have to take a best guess about where to hold/what to click. In those moments, the experience gives a great deal more confidence.
.
This is really one of the best Topics I ever read in AccurateShooter.com !!!
I agree that the future is electronic targets and/or cameras. Even in our small club, we are starting to look for camera system options and I think in the next one or two year it will be a reality for us.
Also, in my part of the World, there is is very few ranges with pits, mostly due to terrain conditions (mountains) and a electronic/camera systems will be a bless, as we will not have to try to figure out where the shots hits the target anymore (in mid range).
Because we don't use pit service, we can shoot real fast, much like with an electronic/camera system. But there is times when it is not the best approach and, sincerely, the one shot per minute technique with deliberate analysis and wind call is really more instructive (we learn more) than shoot fast.
I will try it on my next match... to see how it will work for me.
LRCampos.
This is really one of the best Topics I ever read in AccurateShooter.com !!!
I agree that the future is electronic targets and/or cameras. Even in our small club, we are starting to look for camera system options and I think in the next one or two year it will be a reality for us.
Also, in my part of the World, there is is very few ranges with pits, mostly due to terrain conditions (mountains) and a electronic/camera systems will be a bless, as we will not have to try to figure out where the shots hits the target anymore (in mid range).
Because we don't use pit service, we can shoot real fast, much like with an electronic/camera system. But there is times when it is not the best approach and, sincerely, the one shot per minute technique with deliberate analysis and wind call is really more instructive (we learn more) than shoot fast.
I will try it on my next match... to see how it will work for me.
LRCampos.
Pretty sure I read a Canadian offering a Euro unit that did exactly this.
Sensors on the target stand. Electronic scoring, plotting, whatever.
I think you could even fix the time for the target refresh?????
If yes, then everyone would have exactly the same pit speed and it could be made universal at every range. Say 5 secs from "hitting" the screen.
No more complaining......
Events in half the time. No more botched score cards. No more LOST score cards. Less running costs and hopefully maintenance. No chance of injury in the pits.
Sounds like good tech...
I use a wireless camera set up to help with my practise. Works great but the target gets plenty messed up and hard to read after a bit. Recentering becomes a necessity which adds to the delay in a match. Would get real confusing to score properly in a match too.
On an electronic target, just hit reset and its all good.
Jerry
Sensors on the target stand. Electronic scoring, plotting, whatever.
I think you could even fix the time for the target refresh?????
If yes, then everyone would have exactly the same pit speed and it could be made universal at every range. Say 5 secs from "hitting" the screen.
No more complaining......
Events in half the time. No more botched score cards. No more LOST score cards. Less running costs and hopefully maintenance. No chance of injury in the pits.
Sounds like good tech...
I use a wireless camera set up to help with my practise. Works great but the target gets plenty messed up and hard to read after a bit. Recentering becomes a necessity which adds to the delay in a match. Would get real confusing to score properly in a match too.
On an electronic target, just hit reset and its all good.
Jerry
I have just recently purchased a wireless camera sysytem. It is made by a company called Bullseye. This system is just great for the purpose being talked about, and I have used it last weekend to shoot a F-Class Mid Range (600 yds) match that does not have pit service. Camera and system worked without a hitch.
This system is somewhat unique as it does not take a video or moving picture. The system actually tells you were the last shot is on the target, no matter if it is your first shot or your 20th shot. The new and fresh bullet hole Blinks off and on until you fire your next shot and then it will identify the new bullet hole and it will blink off and on, while the previous shot is now just a part of the forming group. For feedback from the target it is better than pits.
This system is not very expensive either. The have a system for up to 500 yds and an option to extend it to 1,000 yds. I have used mine up to 1,300 yds and it works perfect at that distance. The 1,000 yd system is $549.00 and the 500 yd is a hundred dollars less. Worth taking a look at.
Here is a link to there home page and there are videos there that explain it better than I can.
http://www.bullseyecamera.com/
Roland
This system is somewhat unique as it does not take a video or moving picture. The system actually tells you were the last shot is on the target, no matter if it is your first shot or your 20th shot. The new and fresh bullet hole Blinks off and on until you fire your next shot and then it will identify the new bullet hole and it will blink off and on, while the previous shot is now just a part of the forming group. For feedback from the target it is better than pits.
This system is not very expensive either. The have a system for up to 500 yds and an option to extend it to 1,000 yds. I have used mine up to 1,300 yds and it works perfect at that distance. The 1,000 yd system is $549.00 and the 500 yd is a hundred dollars less. Worth taking a look at.
Here is a link to there home page and there are videos there that explain it better than I can.
http://www.bullseyecamera.com/
Roland
The Viper said:
Yeah they are trialling them over here as well...I think they could be a game changer. I totally get the reasoning behind the electronic targets but will be a little sad to see the people factor of marking go - to me the inconsistency is one of challenges of the sport and the multiday events usually even things out.
I do think it would be awesome to have big screens for spectators, but this could be in place now...the pit service could be on screen to...a bit like the nascar pit crews
...plenty to commentate about there 
Add $50 or whatever to the US Nationals and worlds and you will have the system paid off this Aug. Or at least a darn good downpayment
With 300'ish shooters, got to be able to generate some revenue...
Matches up here usually have paid markers. dont think they are charging $50 per weekend
Jerry
With 300'ish shooters, got to be able to generate some revenue...
Matches up here usually have paid markers. dont think they are charging $50 per weekend
Jerry
PALarson
High Power Competitor, XC and Long Range
Recently while shooting in a match the mirage in my spotting scope was running from left to right at about 7-8 while in my Nightforce which obviously was focused on the target the mirage was running from right to left. A bit confusing, but from a lot of experience I knew that the spotting scope was the one dictating what the wind would do to my bullet. Many ranges that I compete on I find the flags to be nearly worthless that leads to the point that when there is no mirage shooting sometimes gets very difficult.
Paul Larson
Mid Range and Long Range High Master
Paul Larson
Mid Range and Long Range High Master
Jerry,
High dollar electronic targets can work quite well and even then there can be major problems at times. The camera systems are great for testing and informal matches. But before everyone jumps on the electronic target/ video scoring camera bandwagon some serious testing needs to take place before they are used in official matches.
Questions have to be asked and answers found.
Some might be:
A camera system does/can show you where the last shot hit, but how do you know if it is a scratch ten or a nine? Can you plug it?
How big of an area can the camera cover and still give good resolution. 6' square LR frame?
What about crossfires?
What if bullet goes through though same hole?
25-100 setups on one range. How many could be handled due to frequency interference?
Where are you going to mount all these cameras? Protect them?
What happens if a camera or laptop stops working? Mid -string? Range alibi?
What happens if the center gets shot out on the target and you can't see the lines to hold off?
If the center is shot out and the bullet goes through the hole will the shot register? I think not. At 300 in FC this could be a big problem.
All the shooters in a match have to have the same setup. No one can have an unfair advantage.
Larry
High dollar electronic targets can work quite well and even then there can be major problems at times. The camera systems are great for testing and informal matches. But before everyone jumps on the electronic target/ video scoring camera bandwagon some serious testing needs to take place before they are used in official matches.
Questions have to be asked and answers found.
Some might be:
A camera system does/can show you where the last shot hit, but how do you know if it is a scratch ten or a nine? Can you plug it?
How big of an area can the camera cover and still give good resolution. 6' square LR frame?
What about crossfires?
What if bullet goes through though same hole?
25-100 setups on one range. How many could be handled due to frequency interference?
Where are you going to mount all these cameras? Protect them?
What happens if a camera or laptop stops working? Mid -string? Range alibi?
What happens if the center gets shot out on the target and you can't see the lines to hold off?
If the center is shot out and the bullet goes through the hole will the shot register? I think not. At 300 in FC this could be a big problem.
All the shooters in a match have to have the same setup. No one can have an unfair advantage.
Larry
They used the electronic marking at the commonwealth games in India. NZ team members won the team gold - but they had to go and shoot an entire relay again due to technical difficulties...
To me the main question is why go electronic - just because you can doesn't mean that you should....
To me the main question is why go electronic - just because you can doesn't mean that you should....
Good points all, nobody advocated that these wouldn't need some research done to work out the bugs. There could be a lotta of ifs that need to be worked out. Now with that said I like to look at the glass as half full, there very well may be a place for a system like this now.
That would be the ranges all around the country without pits. I am sure there are dozens of Mid Range distance ranges that could use a system like this today. Cost wise certainly a small fraction of the cost of putting in pits. Over time the problems that arise can be addressed as they come up, and there certainly will be some problems. It would allow some of these clubs, if interested, to get up and shooting F-Class matches for a small investment considering the other options, Oh wait there aren't any other options...
Roland
That would be the ranges all around the country without pits. I am sure there are dozens of Mid Range distance ranges that could use a system like this today. Cost wise certainly a small fraction of the cost of putting in pits. Over time the problems that arise can be addressed as they come up, and there certainly will be some problems. It would allow some of these clubs, if interested, to get up and shooting F-Class matches for a small investment considering the other options, Oh wait there aren't any other options...
Roland
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple years ago I had the chance to shoot on electronic targets @ Blair Atholl in Scotland. While there were some benefits... personally I'm in no hurry to change over.
You need to have power available on every firing line (i.e. every yardage) to run the monitors. In the event that you don't - like Blair Atholl - you then have to lug around a portable generator. Also, the monitors need to be set up at every yard line. Granted, with practice and familiarity this can be smoothed out, but my general impression was that any time savings from not having pit changes was eaten up by the time needed to pack everything up and move it between yard lines - and thats before you run into the occasional one target/system on the line that wants to be problematic... and remember this was with only six targets in operation. Scale that up accordingly - I would think the time sink would be incredible. Do we want to have single yardage only matches as a way of compensating?
The other thing that I personally really, really REALLY did not like was that while shooting on conventional paper targets, there is nothing stopping you from aiming your spotting scope a couple targets one way or the other (especially wit h a wide-angle lens) and watching other targets for hints of the wind doing something unexpected. i.e. if you see a normally really good shooter launch one out into the 8... might want to hold up a bit and look again... odds are you may not be 'seeing' whatever it is they missed. With electronic targets - at least the system they had - you cannot see any targets but yours. You are completely and utterly on your own.
The targets used did perform very well overall - if I recall correctly the advertised resolution was somewhere around +/- 1mm, using a rubberize backer with transducers in the corners/sides that triangulated the shot impact and transmitted it back to the monitor. Given the conditions at that particular range and event... shooting out the center and needing a re-facing between relays wasn't really an issue
The other thing to keep in mind is that these were full-on mil-spec target systems, not some home-brew cobbled-together affair. The cost was enormous - as in they were provided by a donation from an estate - not by hiking the match fees a few bucks here and there. The $50 x 300 @ Camp Perry that mysticplayer mentioned... would about pay for *one* firing point. The $5 per match for local clubs that Viper mentioned... might take decades to save up for one. Full-up electronic target systems done right are not cheap in any way, though conceivably as they become less exotic the prices might go down *some*.
You need to have power available on every firing line (i.e. every yardage) to run the monitors. In the event that you don't - like Blair Atholl - you then have to lug around a portable generator. Also, the monitors need to be set up at every yard line. Granted, with practice and familiarity this can be smoothed out, but my general impression was that any time savings from not having pit changes was eaten up by the time needed to pack everything up and move it between yard lines - and thats before you run into the occasional one target/system on the line that wants to be problematic... and remember this was with only six targets in operation. Scale that up accordingly - I would think the time sink would be incredible. Do we want to have single yardage only matches as a way of compensating?
The other thing that I personally really, really REALLY did not like was that while shooting on conventional paper targets, there is nothing stopping you from aiming your spotting scope a couple targets one way or the other (especially wit h a wide-angle lens) and watching other targets for hints of the wind doing something unexpected. i.e. if you see a normally really good shooter launch one out into the 8... might want to hold up a bit and look again... odds are you may not be 'seeing' whatever it is they missed. With electronic targets - at least the system they had - you cannot see any targets but yours. You are completely and utterly on your own.
The targets used did perform very well overall - if I recall correctly the advertised resolution was somewhere around +/- 1mm, using a rubberize backer with transducers in the corners/sides that triangulated the shot impact and transmitted it back to the monitor. Given the conditions at that particular range and event... shooting out the center and needing a re-facing between relays wasn't really an issue
The other thing to keep in mind is that these were full-on mil-spec target systems, not some home-brew cobbled-together affair. The cost was enormous - as in they were provided by a donation from an estate - not by hiking the match fees a few bucks here and there. The $50 x 300 @ Camp Perry that mysticplayer mentioned... would about pay for *one* firing point. The $5 per match for local clubs that Viper mentioned... might take decades to save up for one. Full-up electronic target systems done right are not cheap in any way, though conceivably as they become less exotic the prices might go down *some*.
Mechanical, analog and manual systems operated by trained meat bags can work surprisingly well. What is often lacking in pit service is immediate feedback to the puller about poor performance. If poor pit service was reported and corrective action taken, performance would improve.
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