Case annealing (which looks correct)

[Terry Altom]

I'm in agreement with jepp2. Putting flame directly on Tempilaq is not a valid indicator. When I use Tempilaq to get a time for new cases with my induction annealer, I use 450 on the outside starting about 1/2" below the shoulder to the base and 750 inside of the neck. I also make thin stripes.

Of course with induction, I can also turn off all the lights and watch for the glow and adjust by .1 seconds.

 

[chuckshooter]

I was reading each and every post....from the top.... and was SCREAMING at my computer....because nobody was saying this!! This is 100% correct.

Thanks,
Tod

I have been called nobody before. go back to post #16

 

[4xforfun]

I have been called nobody before. go back to post #16

LOL...yes you did!! I must have been screaming so loud that I blacked out for a second and missed it!!

 

[mikecr]

Flame just never made sense to me.
A propane-butane torch puts out ~2200 F. Other torches go way higher.
You heat the outside of a case with this until seeing ~750F tempilaq applied on the inside change. You gotta know that inner brass surface temp will continue to rise after flame removal, unless immediately quenched, and the outside surface of the brass went beyond full anneal temperature from the git-go.
Best case scenario, half the thickness of that brass properly reset in grain structure.

Induction annealing amounts to cleverly stopping at just the right point within an extreme non-linear heat up curve. Yeah, getting this right takes a lot of testing, and, that is being done.
What if you need to anneal further down the shoulder, or upper body?
Who will build a coil and do all the trial & error & programming for that?

Media dipping puts the correct temperature, no more and no less, to both the inside and outside of a case at the same time. By the time you dip and remove a case at ~800-900degs, it's done.
You don't have to clean or mark cases, turn off any lights, quench, or time.
It is pretty much impossible to get it wrong, and highly likely to produce perfect process annealing -by anybody.

 

[Webster]

QUOTE:
"You heat the outside of a case with this until seeing ~750F tempilaq applied on the inside change. You gotta know that inner brass surface temp will continue to rise after flame removal, unless immediately quenched, and the outside surface of the brass went beyond full anneal temperature from the git-go.
Best case scenario, half the thickness of that brass properly reset in grain structure."


A lot of assumptions being made here with no reason to believe it's true. Even 900F is not over annealing. The below chart data was acquired by annealing in an accurate lab quality furnace I used 15 seconds as a lowest time since I didn't know how long it would take to reach temp. In any case 15 sec isn't a problem at 900F let alone 5 sec. No reason to think the ID and OD reach a different anneal. The factory uses flame anneal. If you have the torch on the case for five seconds to reach 750F you are at the very bottom of the annealing temp range for a couple of tenths of a second. A factory furnace anneal for parts with some thickness is one hour at a temp higher than 750F.

 

[John Russell]

"You cannot over anneal brass - @950°F, it reaches the stable point of annealing and more temp/time will not change anything further."

Where did you get this idea from. Of course you get more annealing with higher temp.

I got mine from a "en-ga-neering" website

Where did you get yours?? A "feeling"?

 

[Longtrain]

jepp2 is right on. The Tempilaq goes on the inside of the neck. I use 750F and have gotten superb results.

I have been using a Ballistic Edge Annealer for quite a few years, it's a manual unit, built like a bull.

I paint a small strip inside the neck of each case with Tempilaq 750F, which dries instantly, as the case enters the flame, it takes jut a couple of seconds depending on the caliber and brass thickness to turn from blue to black, which at that time it is withdrawn and the case drops through a hole into a small bucket under the annealer. I could just time the burn time, and not paint each case, but that's my choice.

Initially, on a test case, I'll paint a long strip from the base to the shoulder with Tempilaq 450F and a small strip of 750F inside the neck, once this case is annealed you can see that the 450F burns only slightly below the shoulder, not coming close to the base of the case, insuring that the case head did not get hot enough to cause a case failure.

 

[Fotheringill]

I have been using an ANNIE for about a year and am happy with the results when tested with Templaq.

I sort and segregate the brass by neck thickness. Then use Templaq on the inside of the neck to see which setting is required to make it disappear.

 

[Webster]

I got mine from a "en-ga-neering" website

Where did you get yours?? A "feeling"?

Your data is for a one hour furnace anneal, not flash annealing

 

[mikecr]

A lot of assumptions being made here with no reason to believe it's true. Even 900F is not over annealing.

Did someone here suggest that 900degF is wrong? I missed that.

No reason to think the ID and OD reach a different anneal. The factory uses flame anneal.

Really? You're sure there is no reason to think that a 2200degF torch heats the outer surface to a different temperature than desired, or at a temperature different than middle/inner surfaces? Also, factories are fully forming brass into cartridges, which is nothing like we do. They would be work hardening that annealed quite a bit before finished product.

A factory furnace anneal for parts with some thickness is one hour at a temp higher than 750F.

Are you talking about cartridge brass, or 'parts' of some sort?

 

[Webster]

Did someone here suggest that 900degF is wrong? I missed that.
Really? You're sure there is no reason to think that a 2200degF torch heats the outer surface to a different temperature than desired, or at a temperature different than middle/inner surfaces? Also, factories are fully forming brass into cartridges, which is nothing like we do. They would be work hardening that annealed quite a bit before finished product.
Are you talking about cartridge brass, or 'parts' of some sort?

My chart is for cartridge case necks. Your chart is for heavier brass parts. Nothing to do with cartridges.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I have never understand the logic of quenching a case after you heat it. This is how you harden metal. I can see cooling with a fan but not water. I don't quench my cases, they fall into a pan and cool slowly, my logic is, just like when I want to forge metal, heat and cool slowly, I can then work it easily, then heat and quench to harden.

 

[mikecr]

You can't harden cartridge brass with quenching.
Our rapid cooling is merely to prevent heat migration into undesired areas of a case. Most of the time, this is not really necessary.

 

[mikecr]

My chart is for cartridge case necks. Your chart is for heavier brass parts.

I never posted a chart

 

[onelastshot]

I recently picked up a Bench Source case annealer and am hoping to get some feedback on run times. The picture is of 223 Lake City brass. On the top of the case is a stripe of 650 degree tempilaq (yellow) and a stripe of 700 degree tempilaq (tan). Below that is 450 degree tempilaq.

Run time were 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, and 3.0 seconds left to right. The only case that showed any signs on the 450 was the far right case at 1.060 or so up from the base of the case.

My question is which one looks like it would be properly annealed? How far down the case is 450 acceptable?

Feedback would be appreciated.

Way too much Tempilaq to tell the condition of the brass. They all look "well done".

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Reading through all 3 pages and still scratching my head. Tempilaq is to be applied to the inside of the case neck and not exposed to open flame. Not one mention of the gas being regulated to keep uniform heating regardless of one or two torch setup? I use a 5 gallon tank with both tank pressure gauge and regulator running cases anywhere from 4.5 to 8 seconds depending on the case neck thickness and ambient temperature with a single torch head setup.

 

[John Russell]

Your data is for a one hour furnace anneal, not flash annealing

Which would make my point even stronger.

 

[kneedtospeed]

Annealing by case color is not going to tell you anything. Paste color is also inconsistent. Timing, gas pressure, flame temp, too many Variables... Once the zinc is cooked out of the composition, your copper will not turn back to brass. It would be nearly as effective, and cheaper, to do a bite test! There is a fine line between not enough, and way too much. A Father / Son team in NZ did all the leg work, to make available to us, the AMP (Almost Made Perfect). It runs multiple programs to match your brass, and they will test Your Brass for free, to match a program even more closely. With their extensive R&D, that's about as close as we're gonna get for now.

 

[onelastshot]

This is going to be a long and painful experiment. Attempting to determine if annealing is accurate by looking at 2-3 pictures is impossible at best. Annealing is an art, something that can't be accomplished by reviewing pictures. You've got to develop a feel for the condition of the brass and determine its annealing completeness, it's a matter of determining the condition of the brass by eyesight.

 

[Bob L.]

I love threads about annealing!