Case annealing (which looks correct)

[Jdne5b]

Before your ignorance gets someone injured, have a look at the 450 tempilaq in his picture for four seconds. That gives me a pretty damn good idea how he's set up and I can say with complete certainty that is way too hot. (That is, assuming the torches are pointed at the neck shoulder jct.)

Not even halfway down the case.

 

[Clancy]

Not even halfway down the case.

Clearly you're not looking at the same photographs that I am. But, even so, halfway with 450 is too far.

I'm just going to take it on faith that the OP doesn't get any hints from you, as it could be dangerous.

That's about all I can say about it.

 

[Cecil S.]

Toddks , I started with LC brass knowing I would make mistakes. Trying to keep the learning curve less painful to my wallet. The Manual that came with the Bench Source helped me get started. I took 10 cases as my test rats knowing they would be trash. I ran 3 at a time with out the torches to get a feel of the dwell setup (no rats lost) next I played with torch set up using a scale to measure distance to case (torches off). Torches on is where things got tricky for me I recommend a good set of gloves as you will no doubt be moving the torches while they are on. I like the Bench Source but the AMP is calling to me. This is not rocket science just learn the machine you have. Very good advice from this form "at times". Ken Sommerville

 

[ToddKS]

Zinc?

Annealing Minimum 800 F
Annealing Maximum 1400F

http://www.concast.com/c26000.php

Love these annealing threads. Seems near impossible to get it right.

More noob questions: I bought the 450 and 650 tempilaq because that is what I saw used in several videos. If brass doesn't anneal until 800, why does it matter where on the case it got to 450 as anything less would not cause annealing?

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I like the Bench Source but the AMP is calling to me. This is not rocket science just learn the machine you have.. . .

This thread shows exactly why I bought the AMP.

It's not rocket science, but it is metallurgy.

 

[MrBottleneck]

I prefer using 750* and 350* Tempilaq near web.
Although, I rarely use Tempilaq anymore as I have gotten my times down pat after thousands of plus cases. At the beginning after getting my Annealeez it helped for peace of mind and as a check.
Heres a pic I took when I first bought it going from shortest time acceptable to longest acceptable (in my view) time for some .308 cases.
I shoot for cases that look like the left one.



Here some good reading for the OPster.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[Willie]

I used the BenchSource for about 5 years and hated the constant changes required for different calibers, neck turns and flame synchronization. I finally bit the bullet and purchased the AMP unit about 1 year ago. I now am now free of the stress the OP is experiencing and am getting much more consistent results from lot to lot.

I had enough experience with the BenchSource to set it up for adequate results on a given lot, but the results from multiple annealings, over a period of time, were not consistent. I'm sure that that most people using torch setups are confident in their results, but I don't think I'll ever go back. JMO!

 

[Texas10]

I recently picked up a Bench Source case annealer and am hoping to get some feedback on run times. The picture is of 223 Lake City brass. On the top of the case is a stripe of 650 degree tempilaq (yellow) and a stripe of 700 degree tempilaq (tan). Below that is 450 degree tempilaq.

Run time were 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, and 3.0 seconds left to right. The only case that showed any signs on the 450 was the far right case at 1.060 or so up from the base of the case.

My question is which one looks like it would be properly annealed? How far down the case is 450 acceptable?

Feedback would be appreciated.

"Sure you used enough dynamite there, Butch?"

Sorry, but looking at the pics with all the paint on the cases, this just leaped to mind so had to share.

I went to salt bath annealing after reading about it here and feel it's about as good as you can get without spending a ton on an Annie.

 

[243winxb]

If brass doesn't anneal until 800, why does it matter where on the case it got to 450 as anything less would not cause annealing?

We have to know that the case head/web area is not over heated. Annealing in this area would be very dangerous. Its a safe guard.

Its not only the temperature, the time used to heat, if slow, will have more effect on the case web area.

The neck/shoulder area only needs to be annealed.

Olin- modulus of elasticity- Cartridge Brass-
Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
when work hardened. Modulus of Elasticity is 16,000,000 PSI. This means to pull a 1.000 inch long strip to 1.001 inch long induces a 16,000 PSI stress.
So if you pull a 1.000 inch strip to 1.005 inch long, you get about 76,000 PSI, which is the max obtainable.

When the temperature is to high or heating is to long, the zinc is removed from the brass, making it scrap.

BoydAllen There was a flare off of the end of the neck at the exact instant that the cases advanced out of the flames.

This would be zinc vaporizing. IMO.

I know nothing. Just internet info. A metallurgist is the one to ask. I don't anneal.

Have fun guys.

 

[John Russell]

"
I recently picked up a Bench Source case annealer and am hoping to get some feedback on run times. The picture is of 223 Lake City brass. On the top of the case is a stripe of 650 degree tempilaq (yellow) and a stripe of 700 degree tempilaq (tan). Below that is 450 degree tempilaq.

Run time were 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, and 3.0 seconds left to right. The only case that showed any signs on the 450 was the far right case at 1.060 or so up from the base of the case.

My question is which one looks like it would be properly annealed? How far down the case is 450 acceptable?

Feedback would be appreciated."

First feedback. You are not painting houses - a small dot of tempilaq is all that is necessary... you still need to get all that crap off. I don't know any shooters that use tempilaq... it is a mess and a waste of time, and tells you nothing that you want to know.

Unless you are case forming and blowing out shoulders, you do not need to heat the shoulder, so do not put the torch on the neck/shoulder, it just puts more heat down into the body. Heat the neck to a dark red for 3 or 4 few seconds and be done with it. When the neck is heated to dark read, time is not critical.

You cannot over anneal brass - @950°F, it reaches the stable point of annealing and more temp/time will not change anything further.

Do NOT be concerned by yellow or orange colours in the flame - it is from the burning of carbon based chemicals like oil, polishing wax, or plain ol' carbon inside of the neck from the last firing.

Copper and Zinc, (and tin) all flame green when reaching the temperature of concern, which is well over anything you an get to with propane/air flames. This means you can not burn the zinc or tin from brass/bronze, no matter how hard you try.

450°F does not anneal brass, so do not be concerned.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I prefer using 750* and 350* Tempilaq near web.
Although, I rarely use Tempilaq anymore as I have gotten my times down pat after thousands of plus cases. At the beginning after getting my Annealeez it helped for peace of mind and as a check.
Heres a pic I took when I first bought it going from shortest time acceptable to longest acceptable (in my view) time for some .308 cases.
I shoot for cases that look like the left one.
View attachment 1021731


Here some good reading for the OPster.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I have had some cases where because of a jam the neck got red and only the neck, but when it cooled didn't look any different than the other cases I had annealed. I pulled them from the bunch, but wonder what would have happened if I did fire them? I saw no signs of zinc burn off or damaged metal from the color.

 

[243winxb]

By now, ever one has heard about annealing with a candle?

I cooked some scrap 223 brass this morning. Keep doing it till there was a change in color.

These were cooked for 3 minutes about 1/4" above the flame.

The wet sponge may have kept the web area from getting to hot??

Wish i had some 450 degree "paint" to know.

How did i do? My guess, to much heat. But then, it was scrap already.

 

[mikecr]

A good read on salt bath annealing, with pics:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/precisi...ing--what-step-in-the-process-is-it-/10-5009/
I've lead dipped clean/polished cases for years, and with this there is only a very faint darkening. Nothing like you see from factory cases and those torched otherwise(pictured here). Flame darkening is likely because the outer surface is hit with temperatures far exceeding process anneal temperatures..

 

[Twoboxer]

AFAIK, AMP is the only group that has designed and backed up their process with actual metallurgical analysis. Also AFAIK, their machine is the only one that has a chance to produce repeatable results using a repeatable setup . . . there are no fractional distances, air currents, gas pressures, or other environmental conditions that can change from setup to setup.

There's some good info to read on their site, including their FAQ, videos, and this: https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/.

An excerpt:

2. Cartridge brass melts at 915°C (1679°F). Up to that temperature it remains homogeneous (Appendix 1 - 1.1).

3. Dezincification of brass can occur because of chemical attack, but heating brass, even to high annealing temperatures cannot cause dezincification unless chemicals are present. The zinc content of the alloy cannot burn or melt out up until boiling point (Appendix 1 - 1.6).

 

[Webster]

I recently picked up a Bench Source case annealer and am hoping to get some feedback on run times. The picture is of 223 Lake City brass. On the top of the case is a stripe of 650 degree tempilaq (yellow) and a stripe of 700 degree tempilaq (tan). Below that is 450 degree tempilaq.

Run time were 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, and 3.0 seconds left to right. The only case that showed any signs on the 450 was the far right case at 1.060 or so up from the base of the case.

My question is which one looks like it would be properly annealed? How far down the case is 450 acceptable?

Feedback would be appreciated.

Tempilaq is not supposed to be used with a 2000F flame on it. It's intended to be used on hot surfaces without a flame.

 

[Webster]

"You cannot over anneal brass - @950°F, it reaches the stable point of annealing and more temp/time will not change anything further."

Where did you get this idea from. Of course you get more annealing with higher temp.

 

[mikecr]

I think he meant that at 950F (process anneal temp) you couldn't full anneal, regardless of time (not temp).
And it seems others are suggesting that at or above full anneal temps (like ~1200F), time no longer matters.
I don't agree that the AMP system is as precise as Salt or lead dipping. After all, how can it get more accurate than immersion into media at actual correct(not averaged) temperature.

 

[jepp2]

FWIW, my view on annealing using a torch (or two).

Putting Tempilaq on the outside of the case where the flame will contact it, makes it worthless. If the flame contacts it directly, it will melt before the metal temperature melts it. I put a thin stripe of 750 degree inside the neck, where I can watch it go clear. If you want to use a lower temperature lower on the case, fine, but again, don't let the flame contact it. I use a stop watch to record the time.

Relying solely on color change is misleading. The amount of color change will depend on the patina on your cases. Highly polished cases will show very little color change. Those that have oxidized and darkened will show more color change.

You can always approach it from the over temperature end. In a darkened work area, watch the case to begin to glow (orange or red). You know this is hotter than it needs. So drop back from there.

I set my torch inner blue cone tip to just touch the brass on the slope of the shoulder. With the lights out, you will see how the flame actually washes over the case neck. For a two torch setup on 223 my cases reach temperature in about 2.6 seconds. At 3 seconds they will glow. With a single torch, it takes about 4.5 seconds to reach temperature. In either of situations, the temperature increase doesn't extend very far down the case body. after it drops into the cooling pan, you can pick it up with your fingers in just a few seconds.

Hopefully this will help, but as you can already see, everyone has their own opinion.

 

[SheepDog]

jepp2 is right on. The Tempilaq goes on the inside of the neck. I use 750F and have gotten superb results. As long as the brass gets to 750 to 850F you have done all the annealing that needs to get done. This is NOT rocket science and the temp has to get to 750F to do its work. An extra half second is not going to ruin your brass.

 

[4xforfun]

FWIW, my view on annealing using a torch (or two).

Putting Tempilaq on the outside of the case where the flame will contact it, makes it worthless. If the flame contacts it directly, it will melt before the metal temperature melts it. I put a thin stripe of 750 degree inside the neck, where I can watch it go clear.
few seconds.

I was reading each and every post....from the top.... and was SCREAMING at my computer....because nobody was saying this!! This is 100% correct.

Thanks,
Tod