Carbon Ring, what is it, where is it?

[chop house]

I also started trimming the min off my brass to try and keep that "gap" between brass and chamber to a minimum

i am going to follow your lead on this... i think i've been keeping my brass too short, and start to panic when it approaches book length.

 

[Webster]

Will be watching this. Any idea of the chemical compound?

There isn't any solvent that dissolves carbon. You may loosen it or dissolve other chemicals in it allowing it to be removed.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

i am going to follow your lead on this... i think i've been keeping my brass too short, and start to panic when it approaches book length.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/how-to-craft-your-own-chamber-length-gauge/

 

[Murray Brook]

I did some quick tests awhile back with permatex gasket remover on the top of some old 2 stroke motocross bike pistons as I had read it worked wonders for removing carbon deposits. Well I tried it on a piston that was completely covered with carbon that was hard enough that one would need a wire wheel to remove it. I sprayed the top of the piston and let it sit for 10 minutes. It dissolved that carbon into a black paste that wiped off with one pass of a rag and the top of the piston looked brand new. I tried wipeout and sweets on another piston I had that was carboned up just as bad and even after sitting for an hour the Wipeout and Sweets never even touched it. The permatex was on a different level of carbon removal. I have been wondering for quite some time if it would make short work of these carbon rings and im thinking it possibly would. I tried a bit on the outside of a stainless barrel and it never etched the steel or did any damage that I could see and am getting closer to cleaning my 6br bore with it. I have some old barrels lying around that are real dirty but I don't own a bore scope to see the results. Anyone that owns a bore scope want to give it a go on an old barrel and see if it will remove a carbon ring?

Real good info.

 

[Webster]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/how-to-craft-your-own-chamber-length-gauge/

The actual length for the neck to fit in the chamber is more than .025" longer than the published case overall length. The case will never grow long enough to bottom out. Custom reamers may have less clearance? In other words the case total length would have to grow more than .015" - 0.020" before you would have interference. I have never had to trim more than 0.002" off a case neck. Make a gauge as described as above and check your chamber. You will feel better about it.

The collar has to have less width than the clearance or else it can not be shoved backwards. When the collar touches the end of the chamber neck there has to be clearance between the collar and the end of the neck. The collar should probably be about .010 - .015 wide. Looks to wide in the photo.

 

[jpmimproved]

I have been following this forum, and see lots of talk about a carbon ring, and I am not familiar with it. What is it, and where does it appear? What causes it? How do you remove it? What effect does it have on accuracy?

I want to improve my accuracy and learn more about accurate shooting. Thanks in advance for your instruction on this matter.

I read through these posts, and. Priced that where/what the carbon ring is has been addressed, but I am very curious about his final question, “What effect does it have on accuracy?” Are we talking losing .1” or .5”?

 

[rijndael]

I would imagine the accuracy impacts are directly related to just how much it impacts the pressure. Pressure and feeding issues are the usual issues associated with carbon rings.

 

[Murray Brook]

I did some quick tests awhile back with permatex gasket remover on the top of some old 2 stroke motocross bike pistons as I had read it worked wonders for removing carbon deposits. Well I tried it on a piston that was completely covered with carbon that was hard enough that one would need a wire wheel to remove it. I sprayed the top of the piston and let it sit for 10 minutes. It dissolved that carbon into a black paste that wiped off with one pass of a rag and the top of the piston looked brand new. I tried wipeout and sweets on another piston I had that was carboned up just as bad and even after sitting for an hour the Wipeout and Sweets never even touched it. The permatex was on a different level of carbon removal. I have been wondering for quite some time if it would make short work of these carbon rings and im thinking it possibly would. I tried a bit on the outside of a stainless barrel and it never etched the steel or did any damage that I could see and am getting closer to cleaning my 6br bore with it. I have some old barrels lying around that are real dirty but I don't own a bore scope to see the results. Anyone that owns a bore scope want to give it a go on an old barrel and see if it will remove a carbon ring?

Took your advice and purchased some Permatex. I don't have a bore scope so I couldn't try it on a barrel, or even see if I had a carbon ring. I tried it on some 7 time fired 25/06 cases I had and hadn't tumbled. The necks were pretty black with what I assume is the susbance that forms carbon rings. Coated one neck with Permatex and the other with BoreTec carbon remover. Waited 10 minutes and cleaned the necks with a rag. The Boretec removed appx 30% of the carbon. The permatex removed appx 85% of the stuff. You are right in that this stuff is on a different level compared to the common carbon removers.Now, i'm not sure how it would react with barrel steel. I tried it on the outside of an old blued barrel I have and it will etch the blue in no time. Wish I had access to a bore scope. By the way, thanks for the info on the Permatex

 

[jaybray]

From what I have read the carbon ring is very hard and so maybe the permatex will not remove it. The carbon on top of the old pistons was no match for it and wipe out and sweets removed no more carbon then using water.
I never seen any etching on the outside of stainless barrel I let it sit on but would hate to ruin my good barrel or have some one else ruin theirs because of my post. Maybe it would be fine maybe it won't. A bore scope with an old dirty barrel would at least see how good the permatex cleans the carbon from smokeless powder compared to all the other cleaners out there.

 

[Murray Brook]

I quoted you on Long Range shooting. Maybe someone there will have a bore scope and will give it a try. I will try and contact Permatex and see what they say concerning it's effects on barrel steel.

 

[Tictac]

http://www.permatex.eu/wp-content/u...IZADOR-DE-INYECTORES-ELIMINADOR-DE-JUNTAS.pdf

I doubt whats in this will do little more than penetrate the surface, it may loosen it??? It's primarily Acetone by the look of it.

 

[6MMsteve]

I believe I have just learned something important in reading this thread. Thanks to each of you who have posted about the carbon ring as I was unaware of such a thing but can now see why I am having a bit of trouble chambering a round in both my Swift and a 243 truck gun. Seems like a borescope will be in my near future.

the Lyman borescope will do you well, it will show you what you don't know about cleaning barrels, and you can use it on dies and other things your curiosity conjures. I have checked alot of dies finish surface and Whidden dies are polished very well. You can check chambers on guns crowns and locking lug areas

 

[jaybray]

http://www.permatex.eu/wp-content/u...IZADOR-DE-INYECTORES-ELIMINADOR-DE-JUNTAS.pdf

I doubt whats in this will do little more than penetrate the surface, it may loosen it??? It's primarily Acetone by the look of it.

The can I have Says Dichloromethane, Toluene, ethanol and isobutane on the back. Maybe they changed the formula or something.

 

[spclark]

Remember please that carbon - the miraculous element upon which life (as we know it) here on Earth is based - can take many forms, ranging from soot up to diamond.

Mike Ross (may he rest in peace) conjectured smallbore rifles were affected by ‘carbon’ build-up just ahead of their chambers that was unevenly deposited at the bottom of their bores due to moisture condensing after firing each round... leading to uneven atmospheric effects relative to gravity.

Powder manufacturers go to great lengths (and expense!) in search of compounds that, when added to their propellant formulas, help extend useful barrel life besides mitigating the bad side of combustion gasses at high temps & pressures on barrel steels. Some of these compounds may be contributing to what is generically called ‘carbon’ build-up when in fact the fouling deposits have a more esoteric make-up.

It certainly makes some sense that build-ups ought to affect smaller bore diameters faster than larger, if one considers the differences between surfaces areas involved.

Gonna be a long winter I guess

 

[spclark]

The can I have Says Dichloromethane, Toluene, ethanol and isobutane on the back. Maybe they changed the formula or something.

Solvents first three, propellant last.

 

[spclark]

... and if you vigorously JB a new, never-fired barrel you’ll get back black patches from the metal being removed. All that’s black may not be from just ‘carbon’.

 

[Someoldguy]

... and if you vigorously JB a new, never-fired barrel you’ll get back black patches from the metal being removed. All that’s black may not be from just ‘carbon’.

Can you expound upon this, please? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. (?)

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Can you expound upon this, please? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. (?)

Rub some Iosso or JB on n clean spoon and you will see how it turns black, they are both Mild abrasives and with to much elbow grease your are basically giving your barrel a lite lap. Basically the same if you polish brass with something like Brasso. A little goes a long way with JB and Iosso so dont over do it.

 

[boiler_house7]

Some very good info here and I'll give my 2 cents. I think a lotta carbon issues are due to excess end clearance on case neck to chamber and running the slower powders at a conservative charge from what I have seen. I have personally pulled a few of my reamer specs back on case length to where I can control clearance on case trimming. some of the calibers I run will never get to sammi spec on the brass available and I want to control my neck clearance on case trim. I also make a pilot the same diameter of my turned neck and modify a case so I absolutely know where my neck clearance is running. I try to keep this clearance to a minimum around .008. that I can control. I don't think this eliminates the problem but a .008 ring is a lot easier to deal with than a .020 or a .030. Dave kiff and I visited about this some years ago on the reamer deal, and some very talented names where brought up that abides by this. I agree with boyd, once there, aint no chemical gonna get it out but my borescope tells me when I need to scrub and a .008 ring sure enough easier than them big logs rollers I've dealt with and often enough a normal regiment keeps the thinner ring under control. One thing kiff brought to my attention when we got to talken about this mess, if a feller gonna get on the tight side of end clearance better make a pilot same O.D as neck than using the bought ones or your gonna get a false reading with the taper in chamber the reamer cuts. I'm sure the discipline we shoot is a deciding factor as well on determining how critical the above applies to. Bill

 

[Hondo]

I am going to politely disagree. The thing that happens at the end of the neck part of the chamber is real, but I believe that there is some confusion on the terminology, or perhaps there is a need for some clarification. The material in that area is simply powder fouling that stacks up (more or less depending on the powder)in an area where "normal" cleaning methods may not be effective in removing it. As the poster stated, it can be a problem, and should be dealt with in normal cleaning. One thing that was not mentioned is that if cases of different lengths are used, powder fouling left from the use of the shorter cases, can impinge on the mouths of longer cases, affecting consistency of bullet release. Getting past that for a moment, the other area that needs to be mentioned is the build up of what is generally referred to as hard carbon. This material is powder fouling on steroids that has been transformed by pressure into something that cannot be removed by any chemical or brush. It can be seen right where the freebore starts, at the top of the chamfer at the end of the neck part of the chamfer, very slightly down the barrel from the powder fouling buildup that was previously described. It can also be found in the back end of the bore, usually in the back third or so of the barrel. Various procedures involving the use of IOSSO are the most effective means of removing these deposits. I use a method that I learned by reading how Tony Boyer did is back in the late 90s, and have not changed it. More recently the manufacturer has a different set of instructions. I assume that they work as well. Some powders such as 133 do not have this problem.Others do, to the extent that for types of shooting that involve extended strings between cleaning, such as varmint shooting, that this may be a major factor in powder selection. One example would be using VV 140 in the .204 Ruger. Shooters have found that the hard carbon buildup was so fast and extensive that a change in powder was required. A middle ground powder may require treatment every hundred rounds or so to stay ahead of the problem. None of this can be properly evaluated without the use of a bore scope, except to say that I did this and the problem went away.

6PPC .262 NECK
I had a similar problem to other posters.
If I chambered a round and then removed it the bullet would have fine scratches from the start of the bearing surface to the case mouth.
Looking in the bore scope there was a black ring where the case neck ended.
I turned a piece of brass rod to .261dia.x.5 long with a 45 deg.ch. on one end and drilled and taped the other
end to fit my cleaning rod.
On the end with the chamfer I filled some notches similar to the end of a reamer .
Screwed to the end of my cleaning rod put it in the camber turned it a few times the black ring was gone.