Can I trust my Magnetospeed numbers?

[CacheCropp]

That is the question.

in my load development I’ve been using a new magnetospeed. So far I’ve only been testing for SD/ES. Next step is to do some seating depth testing. I have a number of questions and concerns and am looking for help in finding the best path forward. I’ll number them to keep it simple:

1. using two powders, one bullet over 15 different loads, I’ve had one (lowest velocity) group with an SD of 0.8 and ES of 2.0 and 6 groups between 4 and 8 SD. Can I trust these magnetospeed numbers going forward? NOTE: my Magnetospeed did slide forward on the barrel several times requiring me to slide it back and tighten it some.

2. related to the first question, if I can trust those numbers, is the consensus wisdom to then do bullet seating depth testing WITHOUT the magnetospeed attached and test purely for groups And impact locations?

3. I may look for a better mount, like Wiser, but currently I test with an adjustable front bench rest and haven’t seen another mounting option that would work with that. Also I don’t want to spend more money if I’m just going to end up with a Labradar.

4. Will a Lab Radar work even when you have to shoot through a metal tunnel? Many shooting ranges require you to shoot through these. So will the rifle barrel and Lab Radar fit into the same 2 foot wide space and work?

Comments - I like the convenience of the Magneto Speed and the ability to import the data to a laptop. I am not impressed with the cheap plasticky mounts and spacers. It does not meet my expectations of a $300 product. More in line with some knock-off Chinese copy you might buy from Amazon. Still like the product overall, but not if I can’t trust my load development process.

 

[Doom]

First off, let me say that if you are unfamiliar with testing and the statistical analysis of test data you should go to to the Precision Rifle Blog and read the three part series on Statistics for Shooters

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

Using a chronograph only looks at one part of the system and it cannot replace a target, it can only provide supplemental data. As for the MS it is a good instrument but it has a major drawback in that it can affect the point of impact.

As for the bulk of you question, you should read the following thread. Most every answer is there.

Load Development Using Chrono Velocity Ladder

Proponents of a single shot chrono ladder seem to have fallen out of favor due to the insufficient statistics, but wondering if anyone has tried this using a "valid" number of shots to find anything informative? Im trying to stay open minded.

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[Txhillbilly]

I've been using the MS V3 for many years for all my rifle load data. Never had any issues with any of the data.
POI change is a given, just as screwing on a suppressor to a barrel.
I usually do my load testing without the chrono, and then use it to get the data on the loads that I want to shoot, so the POI change doesn't ever affect how the rifle shoots without it in the real world.

I've never seen much change in a group size with or without the MS V3 attached to a barrel / suppressor, only POI change.

 

[One Eye Pete]

My buddy and I tested 3 types of chronographs side by side.
1. magnetospeed
2. shooting chrony
3. labradar
While I no longer have the data, they all gave very similar readings and were all easily within 1% of each other. So my guess is that your magneto speed numbers are good.
Each chrono type has its advantages and disadvantages.
The one drawback to the magnetospeed is that when you hang it on the end of the barrel it will change the barrel harmonics, thus the point of impact will change. This is esentially the same effect a tuner has.
When doing a seating depth test you are trying to fine tune the load so that the bullet will exit the barrel at the right point of oscillation. (theoretically when the barrel motion is minimal, that is when it is at the highest or lowest point and for a very brief instant is not moving).
If you do a seating depth test with the magnetospeed on the barrel and find a nice node chances are when you remove the magnetospeed you will no longer be in the node even though the velocity will be the same with or without the magnetospeed attached. Why? because the barrel harmonics will change and now the bullet will not be exiting the barrel at the correct point of oscillation.
My suggestion is use the magnetospeed to get in the correct velocity range but remove it before doing a seating depth test or trying to adjusting a tuner, if you have one on your barrel.
When I had my magnetospeed I made up a rig so that I had it mounted to my Sinclair F class bipod and not the barrel. Did it work? Yes it did until one day it loosened up just a bit and a bullet just barely skimmed the top of the bayonet. It doesn't take much to ruin it.
I now have a labradar but unfortunately I don't know if it will work in a metal tunnel.

 

[Jager]

My experience... chrono data in conjunction with actual results downrange often provides important insight.

Chrono data, alone, without target data, is just burning up a barrel.

 

[Clancy]

My experience... chrono data in conjunction with actual results downrange often provides important insight.

Chrono data, alone, without target data, is just burning up a barrel.

Gospel.

 

[Clancy]

That is the question.

in my load development I’ve been using a new magnetospeed. So far I’ve only been testing for SD/ES. Next step is to do some seating depth testing. I have a number of questions and concerns and am looking for help in finding the best path forward. I’ll number them to keep it simple:

1. using two powders, one bullet over 15 different loads, I’ve had one (lowest velocity) group with an SD of 0.8 and ES of 2.0 and 6 groups between 4 and 8 SD. Can I trust these magnetospeed numbers going forward? NOTE: my Magnetospeed did slide forward on the barrel several times requiring me to slide it back and tighten it some.

2. related to the first question, if I can trust those numbers, is the consensus wisdom to then do bullet seating depth testing WITHOUT the magnetospeed attached and test purely for groups And impact locations?

3. I may look for a better mount, like Wiser, but currently I test with an adjustable front bench rest and haven’t seen another mounting option that would work with that. Also I don’t want to spend more money if I’m just going to end up with a Labradar.

4. Will a Lab Radar work even when you have to shoot through a metal tunnel? Many shooting ranges require you to shoot through these. So will the rifle barrel and Lab Radar fit into the same 2 foot wide space and work?

Comments - I like the convenience of the Magneto Speed and the ability to import the data to a laptop. I am not impressed with the cheap plasticky mounts and spacers. It does not meet my expectations of a $300 product. More in line with some knock-off Chinese copy you might buy from Amazon. Still like the product overall, but not if I can’t trust my load development process.

Magneto speed is a great product. It’s been very reliable for me.

I do seating depth testing first, then powder, then once I have found groups that agree with one another I will chronograph them just for the sake of knowing my velocity, which is pretty well irrelevant unless there is a safety concern. I have been known to use one to match velocity of a new batch of brass to the old batch to shorten the rework of my load.

I won’t call him out, but I’m acquainted with a gentleman that set some records a good while back in 600 BR. I asked him about his velocity once and he said “49 clicks.” There’s a lot of info in that short sentence.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

But - at the end of the day- only the holes in the targets matter.

 

[STOMP442]

My suggestion is to do all load development on paper first. Find a load that shoots good and is repeatable. Then run it over the Magneto and record your findings. Then test it out at a longer range to see again if the accuracy is acceptable and repeatable. If satisfactory results appear on target you are done, chrono be damned. The chrono can say what ever it wants, results on target is what matters. That being said I have used a Magneto for years now and have been very satisfied with its simplicity, reliability and accuracy. It's one of those pieces of equipment that I will never be without.

 

[shoot4fun]

I have tested my Magnetospeed against LabRadar, PACT, Oehler and CE. I trust the numbers from Magnetospeed V3. I would recommend the MK Machine V3 mount. I've actually been thinking of ordering one and trying to adapt it to the front of my Seb Max rest for long range BR matches.

 

[1bamashooter]

Load develope on paper strap on the magnetospeed to get your velocity so you can get a DOPE for that rifle. Hanging a chunk of plastic off the end of your barrel can change barrel harmonics. I've tried it and burt power and bullets that didn't need to be just to figure out don't hang a chunk of plastic off your barrel

 

[chkunz]

First off, let me say that if you are unfamiliar with testing and the statistical analysis of test data you should go to to the Precision Rifle Blog and read the three part series on Statistics for Shooters

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

Using a chronograph only looks at one part of the system and it cannot replace a target, it can only provide supplemental data. As for the MS it is a good instrument but it has a major drawback in that it can affect the point of impact.

As for the bulk of you question, you should read the following thread. Most every answer is there.

Load Development Using Chrono Velocity Ladder

Proponents of a single shot chrono ladder seem to have fallen out of favor due to the insufficient statistics, but wondering if anyone has tried this using a "valid" number of shots to find anything informative? Im trying to stay open minded.

forum.accurateshooter.com

Thank you so much for the link

First off, let me say that if you are unfamiliar with testing and the statistical analysis of test data you should go to to the Precision Rifle Blog and read the three part series on Statistics for Shooters

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

Using a chronograph only looks at one part of the system and it cannot replace a target, it can only provide supplemental data. As for the MS it is a good instrument but it has a major drawback in that it can affect the point of impact.

As for the bulk of you question, you should read the following thread. Most every answer is there.

Load Development Using Chrono Velocity Ladder

Proponents of a single shot chrono ladder seem to have fallen out of favor due to the insufficient statistics, but wondering if anyone has tried this using a "valid" number of shots to find anything informative? Im trying to stay open minded.

forum.accurateshooter.com

First off, let me say that if you are unfamiliar with testing and the statistical analysis of test data you should go to to the Precision Rifle Blog and read the three part series on Statistics for Shooters

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

Using a chronograph only looks at one part of the system and it cannot replace a target, it can only provide supplemental data. As for the MS it is a good instrument but it has a major drawback in that it can affect the point of impact.

As for the bulk of you question, you should read the following thread. Most every answer is there.

Load Development Using Chrono Velocity Ladder

Proponents of a single shot chrono ladder seem to have fallen out of favor due to the insufficient statistics, but wondering if anyone has tried this using a "valid" number of shots to find anything informative? Im trying to stay open minded.

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[DLT]

Load develope on paper strap on the magnetospeed to get your velocity so you can get a DOPE for that rifle. Hanging a chunk of plastic off the end of your barrel can change barrel harmonics. I've tried it and burt power and bullets that didn't need to be just to figure out don't hang a chunk of plastic off your barrel

Your not the only one who did

 

[chkunz]

First off, let me say that if you are unfamiliar with testing and the statistical analysis of test data you should go to to the Precision Rifle Blog and read the three part series on Statistics for Shooters

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

Using a chronograph only looks at one part of the system and it cannot replace a target, it can only provide supplemental data. As for the MS it is a good instrument but it has a major drawback in that it can affect the point of impact.

As for the bulk of you question, you should read the following thread. Most every answer is there.

Load Development Using Chrono Velocity Ladder

Proponents of a single shot chrono ladder seem to have fallen out of favor due to the insufficient statistics, but wondering if anyone has tried this using a "valid" number of shots to find anything informative? Im trying to stay open minded.

forum.accurateshooter.com

Thank you for posting the link "how to predict the future". I wish everyone who analyzes data would read this. I see so much misunderstanding with group analysis and folks making decisions based on insufficient data from time to time on this and other forums. In another life I used statistical analysis in my vocation and understand how to use it but not well enough to teach it. The link you provided is great at the teaching challenge. The author and Brian Litz and Adam McDonald are great at explaining this subject.

 

[Doom]

Thank you for posting the link "how to predict the future". I wish everyone who analyzes data would read this. I see so much misunderstanding with group analysis and folks making decisions based on insufficient data from time to time on this and other forums. In another life I used statistical analysis in my vocation and understand how to use it but not well enough to teach it. The link you provided is great at the teaching challenge. The author and Brian Litz and Adam McDonald are great at explaining this subject.

I spent a good part of my career performing testing and data analysis but the methods were part of published codes and standards so we didn't get into the methods in detail. After retirement I had time to dig into the details. The blog posts came out about the same time I was putting some of the principles it covers into practice. Cal did a great job. There are some great websites that provide the calculations without having to program in Excel. Here is one:

Statistics online - checks assumptions, interprets results

Statistical tests, charts, probabilities and clear results. Automatically checks assumptions, interprets results and outputs graphs, histograms and other charts.

www.statskingdom.com

 

[CacheCropp]

I spent a good part of my career performing testing and data analysis but the methods were part of published codes and standards so we didn't get into the methods in detail. After retirement I had time to dig into the details. The blog posts came out about the same time I was putting some of the principles it covers into practice. Cal did a great job. There are some great websites that provide the calculations without having to program in Excel. Here is one:

Statistics online - checks assumptions, interprets results

Statistical tests, charts, probabilities and clear results. Automatically checks assumptions, interprets results and outputs graphs, histograms and other charts.

www.statskingdom.com

How large of a sample size is needed to be able to draw meaningful conclusions from? I think the issue is time and money. If your barrel has a life of 2000 rounds and your loads cost $2 a round, is it reasonable to test in 20, 50 or 100 shot strings to have a sample size which might give stronger correlation coefficient and/or statistical confidence? Would that even be enough data?

Doom, let me ask you this. If you had a way to perform a controlled test, lab environment and a barrel that didnt wear out - you shoot 2000 shots of a match grade hand load. 2000 more shots exactly the same but .2 more powder, and repeated it increasing .2 for each 2000 shot string, do you think the scatter plot would show an average velocity precisely linear with the powder charge increase? Or would there be some variations (flat spots) like we see with 3 and 5 shot tests?

 

[Webster]

That is the question.

in my load development I’ve been using a new magnetospeed. So far I’ve only been testing for SD/ES. Next step is to do some seating depth testing. I have a number of questions and concerns and am looking for help in finding the best path forward. I’ll number them to keep it simple:

1. using two powders, one bullet over 15 different loads, I’ve had one (lowest velocity) group with an SD of 0.8 and ES of 2.0 and 6 groups between 4 and 8 SD. Can I trust these magnetospeed numbers going forward? NOTE: my Magnetospeed did slide forward on the barrel several times requiring me to slide it back and tighten it some.

2. related to the first question, if I can trust those numbers, is the consensus wisdom to then do bullet seating depth testing WITHOUT the magnetospeed attached and test purely for groups And impact locations?

3. I may look for a better mount, like Wiser, but currently I test with an adjustable front bench rest and haven’t seen another mounting option that would work with that. Also I don’t want to spend more money if I’m just going to end up with a Labradar.

4. Will a Lab Radar work even when you have to shoot through a metal tunnel? Many shooting ranges require you to shoot through these. So will the rifle barrel and Lab Radar fit into the same 2 foot wide space and work?

Comments - I like the convenience of the Magneto Speed and the ability to import the data to a laptop. I am not impressed with the cheap plasticky mounts and spacers. It does not meet my expectations of a $300 product. More in line with some knock-off Chinese copy you might buy from Amazon. Still like the product overall, but not if I can’t trust my load development process.

Your ES and SD numbers look beyond extremely low. Myself I don't worry about the numbers as long as it shoots small groups at the distances I would shoot at. Would you reject loads that shoot small groups if the ES or SD was 10 or 30? Your going to get in an endless chase that never finds a load that meets all your criteria.

 

[Big Mc]

That is the question.

in my load development I’ve been using a new magnetospeed. So far I’ve only been testing for SD/ES. Next step is to do some seating depth testing. I have a number of questions and concerns and am looking for help in finding the best path forward. I’ll number them to keep it simple:

1. using two powders, one bullet over 15 different loads, I’ve had one (lowest velocity) group with an SD of 0.8 and ES of 2.0 and 6 groups between 4 and 8 SD. Can I trust these magnetospeed numbers going forward? NOTE: my Magnetospeed did slide forward on the barrel several times requiring me to slide it back and tighten it some.

2. related to the first question, if I can trust those numbers, is the consensus wisdom to then do bullet seating depth testing WITHOUT the magnetospeed attached and test purely for groups And impact locations?

3. I may look for a better mount, like Wiser, but currently I test with an adjustable front bench rest and haven’t seen another mounting option that would work with that. Also I don’t want to spend more money if I’m just going to end up with a Labradar.

4. Will a Lab Radar work even when you have to shoot through a metal tunnel? Many shooting ranges require you to shoot through these. So will the rifle barrel and Lab Radar fit into the same 2 foot wide space and work?

Comments - I like the convenience of the Magneto Speed and the ability to import the data to a laptop. I am not impressed with the cheap plasticky mounts and spacers. It does not meet my expectations of a $300 product. More in line with some knock-off Chinese copy you might buy from Amazon. Still like the product overall, but not if I can’t trust my load development process.

The target is the proof Tommy Mc


. Tommy Mc

 

[CacheCropp]

Your ES and SD numbers look beyond extremely low. Myself I don't worry about the numbers as long as it shoots small groups at the distances I would shoot at. Would you reject loads that shoot small groups if the ES or SD was 10 or 30? Your going to get in an endless chase that never finds a load that meets all your criteria.

I’m just beginning working up loads for this rifle. Had some concerns about the chrono and posted them here. I like the SD’s and am ready to start testing for seating depth on paper targets. I may run another Chrono test with some of those better loads just to verify those numbers are repeatable.

 

[Webster]

I’m just beginning working up loads for this rifle. Had some concerns about the chrono and posted them here. I like the SD’s and am ready to start testing for seating depth on paper targets. I may run another Chrono test with some of those better loads just to verify those numbers are repeatable.

Show us the targets.