Bullet weld

[Joe Salt]

Matt don't you remember Eddie shooting his 338 in a shoot off with stuff he had loaded five years ago, and shot a 4" 100 score.

Joe Salt

 

[dolek]

I learned about this the hard way. I shoot paper and ghogs. I worked up a good load seating bullets off the lands, usually .015-.020 off. I'd load some after finding the right combo. Months later...shotgun patterns!!! I'd seat some .005 deeper and fell and hear the "weld" being broken! That's when I started loading into the lands, .020 using .002 "grip" of neck on bullet. My lands are 1° 30. I have fired some over a year after loading and tight groups are still there. I can still feel a " pop" occ if reseating these .005. I leave residue in my cases necks and this helps. I suspect the pressure required to break the "weld" is less than pressure required to overcome lands resistance.

Could your "Residue" contribute to your "weld" issue ?

 

[lpreddick]

Could your "Residue" contribute to your "weld" issue ?

By "residue" I'm referring to that little bit of burned powder byproduct. I spin a nylon brush to get out the big chunks. I once polished inside necks and bullet seating was really slick...WELD!!! Graphite coated bullets seem to reduce a weld, but being slick, they can seat deeper if loaded .020 into the lands.

 

[rr2030]

If you are shooting at 100 yards it probably won't snow up. Move to a thousand and check once. Vertical is hard to see at 100 yards. Some bullets have lube on them from making them. That could have helped prevent it from happening. Matt

Berger bullets, don't know if they have lube on them or not. Paper at 100/200, steel out to 600. 1000 would be wasting ammo so I don't shoot that far with this rifle.

 

[dkhunt14]

Matt don't you remember Eddie shooting his 338 in a shoot off with stuff he had loaded five years ago, and shot a 4" 100 score.

Joe Salt

Eddie lubes the cases. He also anneals them hard. Matt

 

[K22]

OK, my head hurts. From now on I'm crimping all my bullets and to hell with the weld. With global warming (or not), the big floating plastic debris island, ISIS, water going down drains in different directions, Hillary jamming my cell communications, the damn fires here and gas at almost $4 a gallon, I don't care about the Bullet Weld conspiracy theory. I have loaded 22-250 ammo, media tumbled and let it sit for 5 years, still shot the same .5 MOA as the stuff I loaded the night before so the Bullet Weld Voodoo isn't affecting me.

YMMV

[rant "off"]

A men - another scare myth - I've preload mine and in 40+ years I've never experienced "bullet weld" - maybe because I'm not a good enough shot to notice it. I don't know what Federal does for their Premium Ammo to prevent "bullet weld" but I have seen some amazing groups shot at the range with this factory ammo which is clearly loaded well in advance of shooting it.

Saw a flying saucer yesterday at the range.

 

[rr2030]

Saw a flying saucer yesterday at the range.

Once when ocean fishing I saw "sharks with frickin. laser beams attached to their heads"

 

[KevinThomas]

This phenomen does exist, and has been thoroughly documented by the Ordnance Dept and the Army Ammunition Plants in decades past. But I think the more proper terminology was “cold soldering.” Hatcher discusses this at length in his classic “Hatcher’s Notebook” in relation to some NM ammunition loaded specifically for the Perry matches. The thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far on this thread was that (as I recall) these bullets were nickel or tin plated. Prior to the matches, the situation was noted and extensive testing was done. Among other things, the techs noted that bullet pull had increased to as much as 600 lbs, and yet the ammunition still performed normally. There were problems that year (1936?), but they were related to the shooters use of a product called NeverNickle, a viscous grease they’d dip the bullet tips into before chambering, that was intended to reduce fouling. Naturally, some of the grease winds up on the cases during chambering, and the chamber walls, etc., and we know what happens from there. But the cold soldering and increased bullet pull didn’t seem to be a factor in the damaged guns related to the NeverNickle. Hatcher did relate an intresting anecdote about one of the pit officials handing him a fired bullet that was found in the pits. The odd thing about it was that the bullet still had the neck of the case attached to it, obviously soldered quite well. Upon firing, the neck stayed attached to the bullet, was ripped off the remainder of the case, and was dragged down the bore and fully engraved by the rifling for its trip to the target. I have, however, never seen any documented cases since then involving brass cases and gilding metal jacketed bullets.

 

[dkhunt14]

This phenomen does exist, and has been thoroughly documented by the Ordnance Dept and the Army Ammunition Plants in decades past. But I think the more proper terminology was “cold soldering.” Hatcher discusses this at length in his classic “Hatcher’s Notebook” in relation to some NM ammunition loaded specifically for the Perry matches. The thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far on this thread was that (as I recall) these bullets were nickel or tin plated. Prior to the matches, the situation was noted and extensive testing was done. Among other things, the techs noted that bullet pull had increased to as much as 600 lbs, and yet the ammunition still performed normally. There were problems that year (1936?), but they were related to the shooters use of a product called NeverNickle, a viscous grease they’d dip the bullet tips into before chambering, that was intended to reduce fouling. Naturally, some of the grease winds up on the cases during chambering, and the chamber walls, etc., and we know what happens from there. But the cold soldering and increased bullet pull didn’t seem to be a factor in the damaged guns related to the NeverNickle. Hatcher did relate an intresting anecdote about one of the pit officials handing him a fired bullet that was found in the pits. The odd thing about it was that the bullet still had the neck of the case attached to it, obviously soldered quite well. Upon firing, the neck stayed attached to the bullet, was ripped off the remainder of the case, and was dragged down the bore and fully engraved by the rifling for its trip to the target. I have, however, never seen any documented cases since then involving brass cases and gilding metal jacketed bullets.

When my buddy decided to return his necks and bit a bit to hard into the shoulder, the result was, neck went down the barrel with the bullet. The end result was a bulged barrel and it was a good one at that. It didnt shoot good after that. Matt

 

[Hengehold]

Have read a few posts talking about bullet weld with ammo sitting around after being loaded.
How far in advance do y'all load your ammo before shooting it. I know it will depend on what I plan on doing with it IE: hunting ammo, plinking ammo ect. I don't compete but do like to shoot small groups. 300 to 600 yds. I have started dipping bullets in imperial dry lube before seating, for me it seem less of a mess then lubing the neck.
Thanks Bill

I think bullet weld is a bunch of BS. I shoot prone with a sling competitively at the national and international level. Last weekend I won a 600 yd match against some very good competition. My ammo was loaded in 2015.

PS, I do not clean my brass in any way and typically dip my case necks into moly dry neck lube before resizing. Maybe that has something to do with creating a barrier.

-T

 

[BoydAllen]

Saying something has not happened to you really has nothing to do with whether it is real or not. People' reloading processes differ and it seem obvious that that is why they have different results as far as this phenomenon is concerned. Two kinds of posters on this make me grimace a bit, those who deny its existence based on not having the problem, and those that try to explain how something happens that they have not apparently ever seen or experienced. That sort of reminds me of guys who published strong opinions about tuners, who had absolutely no experience with one.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

And ill add that your particular discipline may not matter. If you can tell a difference in 20psi and 150psi seating pressure on your target then you may want to believe in it. Factory “match” ammo that some consider good stuff used to be sealed and locked down with asphalt. That discipline apparently couldnt see it. In short range br we can find a bullet in a group that has been dropped on the floor so it matters there.

 

[Homerange]

Saying something has not happened to you really has nothing to do with whether it is real or not. People' reloading processes differ and it seem obvious that that is why they have different results as far as this phenomenon is concerned. Two kinds of posters on this make me grimace a bit, those who deny its existence based on not having the problem, and those that try to explain how something happens that they have not apparently ever seen or experienced.

Yep.
Naysayers

I first read about cold welding years ago on gun forums and it wasn't until I got a decent collet bullet puller just a few years back that I experienced it for myself.
Let's say you have some old loaded rounds you want to pull.....for whatever reason.
Kinetic puller, well you'd have absolutely no feel or idea if the projectile was hard to remove or not, rather just belting away until something came adrift.

OK so out comes the collet puller and you wind the bugger up to where you have previously to fix one of those loading errors we all occasionally make.

Old round.
Result the collet pulls off the projectile and a 2nd attempt is made with more collet tension. Success, maybe, maybe not.
Next round, same result, add more tension....more than you remember for pulling fresh loaded rounds.

OK, thinking they shouldn't be that tough.....what's going on here ?

Drag out the seating die and crack the weld with a deeper seat.....ah ha, now it's like pulling carrots.

Doubters, naysayers, try the above simple test and then welcome to another level of dissimilar metal Galvanic corrosion understanding !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

[dolek]

Cool,another pissing match.

 

[K22]

I would like to see some performance test data - i.e. a larger scale test than the one I posted that I ran which clearly was a small sample size, i.e. ten round preloaded and sat for a year compared to ten rounds loaded at the time of test all from the same batch of cases that were fired the same number of times.

I'm not saying the phenomena doesn't exists only that I haven't experienced any performance issues with preloaded ammunition. If the phenomena doesn't manifest itself in performance, i.e. erratic groups, then what is the big deal?

 

[oldduc]

Cool,another pissing match.

Yep, he who drinks the most beer usually wins those!

I recently fired some 7mm Gradel Express rounds that my father loaded in the 1970's. Had to hammer the bolt open and the primers were totally flowed flat....of course when dad fired the same load 45 years ago, he had to hammer the bolt open and the primers were totally flowed flat. That was what he did to shoot 3/8" groups with that POS.

 

[BoydAllen]

Let me put it this way, I would not pay either of you or a couple of others one thin dime to prove or disprove anything. I have never been mauled by a bear, while hiking in the forest, therefore bears do not maul people. Right. No one has even suggested that all ammunition that sits loaded for a long time will cold weld, but you seem to think that because some does not, that none does.

 

[K22]

OK - let's settle the "bullet weld" issue:

Those who believe it just seat the bullet out say .040" from your COL then when you are ready to go shooting reset to your COL. That should "break" the weld right? Or is there some other strange phenomena that I'm not aware of that will happen to prevent this from working on the way to the range. Make sure you shoot them all up because you can let them sit around or the bullet will weld to the case.

Those who are non-believers - just keep doing what you're doing - bet you'll have more fun than the believers.

I wonder how I shot close to 1800 groundhogs, dozen of predators and a bunch of white tails with my bullet welded reloads.

You poor young shooters, your minds must be so cluttered with all this stuff.

Sorry for the vent but I couldn't resist.

 

[dkhunt14]

OK - let's settle the "bullet weld" issue:

Those who believe it just seat the bullet out say .040" from your COL then when you are ready to go shooting reset to your COL. That should "break" the weld right? Or is there some other strange phenomena that I'm not aware of that will happen to prevent this from working on the way to the range. Make sure you shoot them all up because you can let them sit around or the bullet will weld to the case.

Those who are non-believers - just keep doing what you're doing - bet you'll have more fun than the believers.

I wonder how I shot close to 1800 groundhogs, dozen of predators and a bunch of white tails with my bullet welded reloads.

You poor young shooters, your minds must be so cluttered with all this stuff.

Sorry for the vent but I couldn't resist.

Never saw a 5 or 10 shot group measured on any of them. Matt

 

[dolek]

Never saw a 5 or 10 shot group measured on any of them. Matt

Huh ?