Ultrasonic Case Cleaning & Bullet Seating

[mac86951]

Question,
In your ultrasonic cleaning, is the primer pocket clean first or the inside of the necks? Could you reduce your cleaning time so primer pockets are clean and necks aren't? I'm with Blastit37, I used to stand my cases up in the UScleaner and leave the necks out. I then changed to wet tumbling for more capacity and haven't looked back since.

I do use dry lube as well; no problems with powder, dry lube is a very thin layer, and wipe necks / cases after (finger print removal too).

Alternatively, the dreaded Hornady one-shot can be used too; AMU recommended it at one time; and has several articles on brass prep for gas guns.

Final thought; a change in inside neck chamfer angle could produce more consistent seating force? Example: A sierra 77 seats much better with a VLD chamfer than a 45 degree.

May we ask what cartridge you're loading for?

-Mac

 

[piie]

I find I have bullet movement with 0.002 tension in my gas guns.

Have you tried 2 thou and then crimping to prevent bullet movement?

 

[TheCZKid]

I've used my ultrasonic cleaner for years, never have experienced the issue you are describing. I clean them after depriming the shot brass, and don't US clean after that. After I size. I normally just rinse my brass in hot water in a screen style colander, and use Dawn soap on my hands and just scoop them up and rub them around. This gets the lube off fine, then shake out the water and dry on a cookie sheet in the oven. I do think its a good idea to run a nylon or bronze brush through the necks as a final prep.

 

[Fire4Effect]

Have you tried 2 thou and then crimping to prevent bullet movement?

Yes, I tried crimping and the accuracy decreased. This is the typical accuracy I obtain with 0.003~0.0035 neck tension. See photo below.

 

[Fire4Effect]

I've used my ultrasonic cleaner for years, never have experienced the issue you are describing. I clean them after depriming the shot brass, and don't US clean after that. After I size. I normally just rinse my brass in hot water in a screen style colander, and use Dawn soap on my hands and just scoop them up and rub them around. This gets the lube off fine, then shake out the water and dry on a cookie sheet in the oven. I do think its a good idea to run a nylon or bronze brush through the necks as a final prep.

I have found by searching that the issue is common. I could try you method of ultrasonically cleaning as a first step instead of a last step. More often than not I don’t have time to ultrasonically clean so I just vibrate like I have been doing for almost 50 years.

 

[Fire4Effect]

Question,
In your ultrasonic cleaning, is the primer pocket clean first or the inside of the necks? Could you reduce your cleaning time so primer pockets are clean and necks aren't? I'm with Blastit37, I used to stand my cases up in the UScleaner and leave the necks out. I then changed to wet tumbling for more capacity and haven't looked back since.

I do use dry lube as well; no problems with powder, dry lube is a very thin layer, and wipe necks / cases after (finger print removal too).

Alternatively, the dreaded Hornady one-shot can be used too; AMU recommended it at one time; and has several articles on brass prep for gas guns.

Final thought; a change in inside neck chamfer angle could produce more consistent seating force? Example: A sierra 77 seats much better with a VLD chamfer than a 45 degree.

May we ask what cartridge you're loading for?

-Mac

Question,
In your ultrasonic cleaning, is the primer pocket clean first or the inside of the necks? Could you reduce your cleaning time so primer pockets are clean and necks aren't? I'm with Blastit37, I used to stand my cases up in the UScleaner and leave the necks out. I then changed to wet tumbling for more capacity and haven't looked back since. Fire4Effect: The primer pockets are cleaned and a nylon brush is run through the necks. Next I vibrate clean before resizing.

I do use dry lube as well; no problems with powder, dry lube is a very thin layer, and wipe necks / cases after (finger print removal too).

Alternatively, the dreaded Hornady one-shot can be used too; AMU recommended it at one time; and has several articles on brass prep for gas guns. Fire4Effect: I do use Hornady One-Shot. Dreaded ??

Final thought; a change in inside neck chamfer angle could produce more consistent seating force? Example: A sierra 77 seats much better with a VLD chamfer than a 45 degree. Fire4Effect: I use a Giraud case trimmer. The angles are fixed.

May we ask what cartridge you're loading for? Fire4Effect: .223 Remington.

 

[Migolito]

Ive used my(now 20 year old) US cleaner for cleaning pistols. Yes, Ive found that certain cleaners do leave a film that causes increased 'stickyness' or the metal to metal contact is no longer smooth. Some US cleaners add something to the solutions that cause this. They may label it a "protectant". The issue isn't with your/or my US cleaner, it's with the solutions we use. For brass, use a solution that leaves zero residue. Lube as needed.

 

[Fire4Effect]

Ive used my(now 20 year old) US cleaner for cleaning pistols. Yes, Ive found that certain cleaners do leave a film that causes increased 'stickyness' or the metal to metal contact is no longer smooth. Some US cleaners add something to the solutions that cause this. They may label it a "protectant". The issue isn't with your/or my US cleaner, it's with the solutions we use. For brass, use a solution that leaves zero residue. Lube as needed.

I am not aware of any film be left after ultrasonic cleaning. I thoroughly rinse the brass after ultrasonic cleaning.

 

[divingin]

Fire4Effect: The primer pockets are cleaned and a nylon brush is run through the necks. Next I vibrate clean before resizing.

Alternatively, the dreaded Hornady one-shot can be used too; AMU recommended it at one time; and has several articles on brass prep for gas guns. Fire4Effect: I do use Hornady One-Shot. Dreaded ??

You brush the inside of the neck before ultrasonic cleaning? What is that supposed to accomplish that the US cleaning won't?

Do you use 1-shot as a neck lube for seating? Or just for sizing? [Dreaded, as a lot of people seem to stick cases using it. I never have, and have always assumed it's due to not following directions.]


From your original post, you seem to be trying to lube the neck interior while avoiding mess. You miss several other mix-and-match combinations that might work for you:

Any of the fine powder lubricants on a .22 cal bore mop. Run the case onto the mop and remove. Recharge mop as needed.

Apply Lock-Ease to a bore mop and allow to dry. Run the case onto the mop and remove.

Any of the fine powder lubes on a bore brush.

Lock-Ease on a Q-Tip, swirl inside the case mouth. Ditto with any of the powdered lubes.

One Shot would likely work, but is going to work out to be a lot more expensive, I'd bet. Stand cases up, spray at a 45 degree angle into the case mouths, from 2 or 3 directions. Charge and seat.

It really shouldn't take much lube to ease the bullet seating. You're just trying to avoid (or minimize is probably more accurate) brass to copper contact.

 

[Fire4Effect]

You brush the inside of the neck before ultrasonic cleaning? What is that supposed to accomplish that the US cleaning won't?

Do you use 1-shot as a neck lube for seating? Or just for sizing? [Dreaded, as a lot of people seem to stick cases using it. I never have, and have always assumed it's due to not following directions.]


From your original post, you seem to be trying to lube the neck interior while avoiding mess. You miss several other mix-and-match combinations that might work for you:

Any of the fine powder lubricants on a .22 cal bore mop. Run the case onto the mop and remove. Recharge mop as needed.

Apply Lock-Ease to a bore mop and allow to dry. Run the case onto the mop and remove.

Any of the fine powder lubes on a bore brush.

Lock-Ease on a Q-Tip, swirl inside the case mouth. Ditto with any of the powdered lubes.

One Shot would likely work, but is going to work out to be a lot more expensive, I'd bet. Stand cases up, spray at a 45 degree angle into the case mouths, from 2 or 3 directions. Charge and seat.

It really shouldn't take much lube to ease the bullet seating. You're just trying to avoid (or minimize is probably more accurate) brass to copper contact.

You brush the inside of the neck before ultrasonic cleaning? What is that supposed to accomplish that the US cleaning won't? Fire4Effect: I brush out the necks when I decap primers and clean the primer pockets. Then I vibrate clean the cases in walnut media before resizing.

Do you use 1-shot as a neck lube for seating? Or just for sizing? [Dreaded, as a lot of people seem to stick cases using it. I never have, and have always assumed it's due to not following directions.] Fire4Effect: I thought 1-shot was the Hornady ultrasonic cleaning fluid.

From your original post, you seem to be trying to lube the neck interior while avoiding mess. You miss several other mix-and-match combinations that might work for you: Fire4Effect: I loaded up 30 cartridges this evening. All were previously ultrasonically cleaned. I dipped half of the case necks in powdered moly and none on the remaining half. Bullets seated smoother with less effort in the moly coated necks. I will try to make it to the range soon to compare.

Any of the fine powder lubricants on a .22 cal bore mop. Run the case onto the mop and remove. Recharge mop as needed.

Apply Lock-Ease to a bore mop and allow to dry. Run the case onto the mop and remove. : Fire4Effect: Are you suggesting this as an alternative to fine powder lubricants?

Any of the fine powder lubes on a bore brush.

Lock-Ease on a Q-Tip, swirl inside the case mouth. Ditto with any of the powdered lubes.

One Shot would likely work, but is going to work out to be a lot more expensive, I'd bet. Stand cases up, spray at a 45 degree angle into the case mouths, from 2 or 3 directions. Charge and seat. : Fire4Effect: Not using 1-shot neck lube.

It really shouldn't take much lube to ease the bullet seating. You're just trying to avoid (or minimize is probably more accurate) brass to copper contact.

 

[mac86951]

Thanks Fire4Effect;
Yes the Hornady One-shot we're referring to is the case lube, I'm sure Hornady has expanded that name across a line of products. I'm a little confused in understanding your process set-ups, some steps seem a little repetitive, and I'm curious if you'd be interested in helping us thru your process steps? I'm not sure I've heard of cleaning again after sizing aside from removing sizing lube. I'm assuming the ultra sonic clean to prevent the necks from being dinged?
Typically I'd expect to hear that you decap, brush the necks, tumble in walnut media, then size, remove sizing excess, and then load. I'm not sure any accuracy is gained by the second ultrasonic unless you're saving time from wiping cases?

Question, what sizing lube are you using, and loading on progressive, or single stage press?

-Mac

 

[divingin]

You brush the inside of the neck before ultrasonic cleaning? What is that supposed to accomplish that the US cleaning won't? Fire4Effect: I brush out the necks when I decap primers and clean the primer pockets. Then I vibrate clean the cases in walnut media before resizing.

Do you use 1-shot as a neck lube for seating? Or just for sizing? [Dreaded, as a lot of people seem to stick cases using it. I never have, and have always assumed it's due to not following directions.] Fire4Effect: I thought 1-shot was the Hornady ultrasonic cleaning fluid.

From your original post, you seem to be trying to lube the neck interior while avoiding mess. You miss several other mix-and-match combinations that might work for you: Fire4Effect: I loaded up 30 cartridges this evening. All were previously ultrasonically cleaned. I dipped half of the case necks in powdered moly and none on the remaining half. Bullets seated smoother with less effort in the moly coated necks. I will try to make it to the range soon to compare.

Any of the fine powder lubricants on a .22 cal bore mop. Run the case onto the mop and remove. Recharge mop as needed.

Apply Lock-Ease to a bore mop and allow to dry. Run the case onto the mop and remove. : Fire4Effect: Are you suggesting this as an alternative to fine powder lubricants?

Any of the fine powder lubes on a bore brush.

Lock-Ease on a Q-Tip, swirl inside the case mouth. Ditto with any of the powdered lubes.

One Shot would likely work, but is going to work out to be a lot more expensive, I'd bet. Stand cases up, spray at a 45 degree angle into the case mouths, from 2 or 3 directions. Charge and seat. : Fire4Effect: Not using 1-shot neck lube.

It really shouldn't take much lube to ease the bullet seating. You're just trying to avoid (or minimize is probably more accurate) brass to copper contact.

Neck brushing: Still don't get why. The US cleans any residue in the necks out anyway. But, hey, it's your process. If it works the way you want, it works.

Rereading the original post, if you dry tumble the cases after ultrasonic cleaning, the media in your tumbler should leave some fine powder or dust on the case surfaces. Which should, on its own, act as a lube.

One-Shot: It's kind of a generic brand name for a bunch of Hornady products; Didn't know they made a One-Shot ultrasonic solution. In any case, I (and one other poster) were talking about the One-Shot aerosol case lube (not neck lube per se, though it works as one.)

Lock-Ease: Yes I am suggesting it as an alternative to other powder lubricants. Lock-Ease (or Eez or however it's spelled) is a very fine graphite powder in an alcohol carrier. Graphite is a lubricant. The alcohol flashes off, leaving a film of graphite.

Hope that clears up what I was trying to say.

 

[Fire4Effect]

Thanks Fire4Effect;
Yes the Hornady One-shot we're referring to is the case lube, I'm sure Hornady has expanded that name across a line of products. I'm a little confused in understanding your process set-ups, some steps seem a little repetitive, and I'm curious if you'd be interested in helping us thru your process steps? I'm not sure I've heard of cleaning again after sizing aside from removing sizing lube. I'm assuming the ultra sonic clean to prevent the necks from being dinged?
Typically I'd expect to hear that you decap, brush the necks, tumble in walnut media, then size, remove sizing excess, and then load. I'm not sure any accuracy is gained by the second ultrasonic unless you're saving time from wiping cases?

Question, what sizing lube are you using, and loading on progressive, or single stage press?

-Mac

I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax. I have a Forester Co-Ax press. Sorry I could not respond sooner, but I have been very busy. I did make it to the range today and the results were interesting. I will try and post more when I have time

 

[Fire4Effect]

Neck brushing: Still don't get why. The US cleans any residue in the necks out anyway. But, hey, it's your process. If it works the way you want, it works.

Rereading the original post, if you dry tumble the cases after ultrasonic cleaning, the media in your tumbler should leave some fine powder or dust on the case surfaces. Which should, on its own, act as a lube.

One-Shot: It's kind of a generic brand name for a bunch of Hornady products; Didn't know they made a One-Shot ultrasonic solution. In any case, I (and one other poster) were talking about the One-Shot aerosol case lube (not neck lube per se, though it works as one.)

Lock-Ease: Yes I am suggesting it as an alternative to other powder lubricants. Lock-Ease (or Eez or however it's spelled) is a very fine graphite powder in an alcohol carrier. Graphite is a lubricant. The alcohol flashes off, leaving a film of graphite.

Hope that clears up what I was trying to say.

Thanks. I might try Lock-Ease. It sounds like it will provide a more uniform coating instead of dipping the cases in moly.

 

[One Eye Pete]

When my brass gets really dirty I wet tumble. When the inside of the necks get too clean bullet seating force goes up and becomes somewhat erratic. To remedy the situation I went on eBay and purchased a 3 oz bottle of molybdnum disulfide (about $18.00). I mix about 1/2 oz of the moly powder with 2-3 liquid oz of 95 percent rubbing alcohol in a small bottle. It can be easily applied to the inside of the necks with a bore mop. One light dip of the bore mop in the moly solution can lube about 10-15 necks. Once the alcohol dries it leaves a nice uniform coating on the inside of the neck. The coating is not affected by charging powder and I have not had any trouble with moly residue in the barrel. Moly greatly reduces the friction so seating force is significantly reduced and very consistent. This method isn't anywhere near as messy as using dry moly or graphite powde and there is no harmful dust. Accuracy with this method is about the same as having the normal coating of residual carbon in the neck.
Years ago when I was shooting short range benchrest I got the bright idea of lubing the case necks with a light oil or grease. When charging powder it stuck to the necks. The other major drawback was that accuracy definitely decreased. Imperial die wax is fantastic as a sizing lube but not inside the neck.
The other thing that is very important for bullet seating is to make sure you have a good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.

 

[mac86951]

I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax. I have a Forester Co-Ax press. Sorry I could not respond sooner, but I have been very busy. I did make it to the range today and the results were interesting. I will try and post more when I have time

Ok, in that case; you're applying it carefully to each case individually?

May I propose a process?
#1 get your brass as clean as you want, decapped up-front. Dip the neck in (or otherwise apply) dry neck lube only up to the shoulder. Use imperial on the case body only (none on the shoulder, no dented shoulders then). Wipe the case (paper towel works great, just a twist or two does the trick). Then prime, charge, seat and a final wipe. This is a generalized summary of what I'd do for 600y loads for the AR.

Alternate method if you're looking for something to practice standing at 100y...

Blasphemy, I'm sure; i don't even decap the brass, i just wet tumble it and air dry.

I stand cases up in a loading block, spray with Hornady One-shot case lube at a 45 degree angle from two different directions (like east-west and make sure the can is shaken like a not stirred Martini!). Dump the cases into a ziplock, tumble around and let dry for a couple of minutes.

Size em, prime 'em, throw a charge via powder measure, seat bullet, wipe clean, done. Trimming is approx Once per 4 loadings, insert that stuff in between the sizing and priming. Once I figured out that process, i acquired a progressive press. Then i loaded some 600y loads on the press (weighted the charges). Accuracy is far better than my wind calling abilities.

I think with 223 you can spend hours on prep and details to get accuracy from a non-stable load; and then a bullet / primer / powder change suddenly makes a load that is far less sensitive to the loading process.

It's all dependent on what your goals are and managing expectations. You've got a process; with all of our recommendations, change one thing at a time and see if it makes a difference on target.

Of course I'm just thinking out loud here; your initial question of making bullet seating more consistent, there's already a few options for you to try and let us know.

We're looking forward to target pics!

-Mac

 

[Fire4Effect]

When my brass gets really dirty I wet tumble. When the inside of the necks get too clean bullet seating force goes up and becomes somewhat erratic. To remedy the situation I went on eBay and purchased a 3 oz bottle of molybdnum disulfide (about $18.00). I mix about 1/2 oz of the moly powder with 2-3 liquid oz of 95 percent rubbing alcohol in a small bottle. It can be easily applied to the inside of the necks with a bore mop. One light dip of the bore mop in the moly solution can lube about 10-15 necks. Once the alcohol dries it leaves a nice uniform coating on the inside of the neck. The coating is not affected by charging powder and I have not had any trouble with moly residue in the barrel. Moly greatly reduces the friction so seating force is significantly reduced and very consistent. This method isn't anywhere near as messy as using dry moly or graphite powde and there is no harmful dust. Accuracy with this method is about the same as having the normal coating of residual carbon in the neck.
Years ago when I was shooting short range benchrest I got the bright idea of lubing the case necks with a light oil or grease. When charging powder it stuck to the necks. The other major drawback was that accuracy definitely decreased. Imperial die wax is fantastic as a sizing lube but not inside the neck.
The other thing that is very important for bullet seating is to make sure you have a good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.

I am tempted to try your method. I have a bunch of brass that has been fully processed and ultrasonically cleaned. In the meantime I am going to use the vibratory method of cleaning. Regarding chamfering on the inside of the case mouth, I use a Giraud trimmer that I believe is doing a good job.

 

[Fire4Effect]

On Wednesday this week I loaded up some Lake City cases that were ultrasonically cleaned. Half with the necks dipped in moly and half not dipped. Yesterday I went to the range and tested the loads. My rifle was a Daniel Defense Mk12 with an 18” barrel.

I was surprised the cases that were not dipped in moly grouped better than the cases that were. The velocity spread was also tighter on the cartridges that were not dipped in moly.

BTW, the necks on these cases were turned to 0.011” with 0.0035” neck tension.

 

[One Eye Pete]

To be honest I have not seen a difference in accuracy on my rifles when I moly cote the inside of the necks. I shoot mainly bolt action rifles and I often jam the bullets. The two reasons I coat the necks are
1. I seat the bullets with a K&M arbor press with a force gauge. By doing this I hope to weed out cases with incorrect neck tension. The moly on the inside of the neck reduces the friction and makes it easier to feel the true neck tension from the brass. I do believe that this helps me reduce "flyers".
2. When I work up loads I seat all my bullets long then adjust seating depth at the range. The coated necks prevents the bullets from "sticking" and makes this easier.

What I do know is that gas guns and bolt actions are two different animals. I have much less experience with gas guns and have not been able to get the accuracy that I get from a bolt action. The one thing that is the same with the two types of rifles is that when all is said and done you have to believe what the target tells you.

 

[big john 5394]

You might change your load when you lube your case necks i tried lubing the neck with a proven load and it did not shoot well i am going to try it again reducing the powder charge.