Since both of your rifles can shoot factory ammo, did you rule out flyers by shooting the factory rounds?
Bullet Runout Issues - Help!
- Thread starter cjc5062
- Start date
6BRA
Gold $$ Contributor
For those that say...Freebore will straighten it out.
let me ask.....
If a bullet with .005 to .008 runout is placed in the Freebore. What happens to the cartridge case that you have set perfect headspace for? For every action there is a reaction. I set my headspace at about .002. This allows my case to float in the chamber. However....if everything isn't in align. Something is going to have to give. So to be dramatic and illustrate what I am saying. If you take a loaded round with .008 runout and load it into the chamber/freebore and close the bolt. Wouldn't the case be torqued or in effect not free float or not present itself against the bolt face square? Just asking.
let me ask.....
If a bullet with .005 to .008 runout is placed in the Freebore. What happens to the cartridge case that you have set perfect headspace for? For every action there is a reaction. I set my headspace at about .002. This allows my case to float in the chamber. However....if everything isn't in align. Something is going to have to give. So to be dramatic and illustrate what I am saying. If you take a loaded round with .008 runout and load it into the chamber/freebore and close the bolt. Wouldn't the case be torqued or in effect not free float or not present itself against the bolt face square? Just asking.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
I've seen the same result from other top shooters.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
It depends on chamber diameter clearances. Once there is enough bend in the cartridge where there are three solid points of contact, the chamber act like a Hornady concentricity tool and bends the cartridge at its weakest point. Generally the bullet in the case mouth.
This is where jam and jump can make the answer different. A bullet that jumps into the freebore has a chance to to self align, two tapers tend to align themselves. Shape of the ogive comes into play. That’s why some shapes are easier to tune than others.
A cartridge touching hard at 3 points because of excessive bullet runout, say side of the bullet, shoulder, case head is already lined up to do a bank shot into the bore.
It’s a floating scale, but it’s pretty safe to say that if you have clickers while trying to chamber a round because the chamber is used to straighten out a bent cartridge, it probably will show up on target.
The only time I ever experienced consistent flyers in centerfire rifles with reloaded ammo I traced to two causes:
1. Bedding issues and / or barrel contact with the stock.
2. Cleaning with aggressive strong copper remover solvents - requiring several shots to re-establish desired POI.
I never traced a consistent flyer situation to bullet run out. This does not include an isolated case of a Rem 700 that had, as confirmed by Remington, a barrel with defective rifling.
Just my experience, not making any general pronouncements.
Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
If you want to ,get your run-out down then an inexpensive way to do it is to size your case with a Redding body die then size your case neck with a Lee collet die . Seat your bullet with a good seater die like Foster, Redding etc. Your run-out will be low if you are using good brass. JMO
ronemus
Gold $$ Contributor
Until you have neck-turned your brass and fireformed it in a correctly machined chamber, you won't be able to get low runout. Think about the reloading process - you size the exterior of the case, but if neck thickness isn't uniform then bullets won't be aligned with the centerline of the case. At a minimum you'll have to turn necks and fire them at least once before you'll be able to get low runout.
An Autodod is overkill for most purposes, and if you're doing small volumes a conventional neck turning kit is more than sufficient. Be sure to get carbide cutters that are a match for the shoulder angle of your cases, and carbide mandrel sets (matched expanding and turning, usually 0.001" different diameters). Neck turn after expanding necks as this will move the donut to the outside of the neck where it will be removed by turning.
I load a fair volume because I'm a competitive Highpower shooter, so I try to make my process as efficient as possible. I use Hornady sizing dies with the elliptical expander, which gives me good runout and eliminates a separate expansion step.
Seating dies that use a sliding sleeve give me the best runout, and Forster dies have been the most durable for me - the shape and metallurgy of the seating stem are the best I've tried, and the geometry works with the pointiest bullets I've used.
Be sure to anneal before sizing, because I've proven to myself that annealing afterwards destroys concentricity.
Imperial Sizing Wax (or some of its imitators) is the way to go as it is very slick and and can be used sparingly - a barely visible film under good light. Unfortunately it makes for a 2-step lube process: apply to exterior (including neck and shoulder) with fingertips, and inside the neck with a cotton swab. Done properly there are never lube dents and all sizing is smooth and easy - if it feels rough it won't be consistent.
Use a concentricity gage to set up and refine your loading process, and check results after each step until any issues are resolved. Then put it on the shelf and check every once in a while for QC. If you have to use it to sort loaded rounds or components you're doing something wrong.
I've refined my process to the point that I produce rounds with runout of 0.003" or less measure near the tip of the bullet. I use a Sinclair gage and support the case near the base and shoulder when measuring. It's frustrating to read posts with runout numbers and no definition of what and how they are measured.
An Autodod is overkill for most purposes, and if you're doing small volumes a conventional neck turning kit is more than sufficient. Be sure to get carbide cutters that are a match for the shoulder angle of your cases, and carbide mandrel sets (matched expanding and turning, usually 0.001" different diameters). Neck turn after expanding necks as this will move the donut to the outside of the neck where it will be removed by turning.
I load a fair volume because I'm a competitive Highpower shooter, so I try to make my process as efficient as possible. I use Hornady sizing dies with the elliptical expander, which gives me good runout and eliminates a separate expansion step.
Seating dies that use a sliding sleeve give me the best runout, and Forster dies have been the most durable for me - the shape and metallurgy of the seating stem are the best I've tried, and the geometry works with the pointiest bullets I've used.
Be sure to anneal before sizing, because I've proven to myself that annealing afterwards destroys concentricity.
Imperial Sizing Wax (or some of its imitators) is the way to go as it is very slick and and can be used sparingly - a barely visible film under good light. Unfortunately it makes for a 2-step lube process: apply to exterior (including neck and shoulder) with fingertips, and inside the neck with a cotton swab. Done properly there are never lube dents and all sizing is smooth and easy - if it feels rough it won't be consistent.
Use a concentricity gage to set up and refine your loading process, and check results after each step until any issues are resolved. Then put it on the shelf and check every once in a while for QC. If you have to use it to sort loaded rounds or components you're doing something wrong.
I've refined my process to the point that I produce rounds with runout of 0.003" or less measure near the tip of the bullet. I use a Sinclair gage and support the case near the base and shoulder when measuring. It's frustrating to read posts with runout numbers and no definition of what and how they are measured.
This thread just made me do something I have not done in quite awhile. I took the Sinclair concentricity gauge down and blew the dust off to check a few 30BR loads that I loaded a few nights ago. Measured 10 rds. and had total of .001 variances. 7 of the 10 were virtually at zero to .0005. Back years ago when I used to dwell on it I learned handling of the press handle could play a huge part in reducing runout. Just because you may have a heavy hunk of steel (press) that can mutilate a simple piece of brass don't mean you have to act like you want to destroy it. LOL.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Several have touched on it here, but a good inline seat cured any runout problems I’ve had..all I use now..
Thanks for the good info. I’ve been running new Peterson brass but am going to try some fire formed brass this week to experiment with.
Do you recommend a particular neck turner? I’ve read pros and cons of lots. Would rather not spend money on autodod.
Good news though is I found a good powder charge today for my both 6.5 PRC and 7PRC that was shooting .25 MOA at 100 for both. Found good nodes and seating depths over the last week.
But still want to get the runout issue solved for my own knowledge that I’m doing everything as best as possible.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
I disagree. Please see my post #57 above.
I never.never neck turned my brass, I have paid no attention to fireforming. I do assume the gunsmiths who have chambered the barrels I use do it well.
I have never found more than .002 run out with 99.99% .001 or less.
muleystalker
Silver $$ Contributor
Stop annealing new brass before it's fired, it's already been annealed. Unless you are forming cases for a wildcat or something where you are manipulating the brass in several procedures.
Ahhhhh Doh-nuts….Just a couple more thought, no load data mentioned, is it possible you’re seating the bullet past the duuuuuuhnut?
What has changed since April that might cause your runout to change, basically double?
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