Bullet Runout Issues - Help!

[Bill Norris]

Not at all trying to be anything other than helpful but going back and re-reading your post at the top I don't see where you state that you have seriously doubled check your bench manners. Some of the most seemingly un-important aspects of rifle handling and bench attitude can definitely affect the target.

 

[Rwfish]

If these cases are no, not fired then recheck after they have formed to your chamber. Should be little to no runout on the neck at that point. After your prep and running them thru the sizing die measure again and that will tell you what you’ll need to know. If they are still good then check after seating a bullet. You’ll then know where the runout is being introduced.
Are you using a button expander as well as bushing in the sizing die?

 

[cjc5062]

Are you using the expander ball in the die when sizing? If so, this could be part of what contributes that that kind of runout. You might try just sizing your cases without that expander ball in the die, then use an expander mandrel to expand the necks to the neck tension you're after???

You didn't mention your cleaning process, that too might be involved since annealing will leave an abrasive film on the inside and outside surface of the necks. That abrasiveness can produce enough drag to affect seating (even with some of that lube you're using) that's contribute to seating issues also leading to some of that runout. I don't find running a brush through the neck good enough. What I like to do is anneal then clean the outside of the necks with some steel wool, size (no expander ball) using Imperial Sizing Die Wax, dry tumble clean with medium grain rice, expand necks with expander mandrel then trim to length. . . then they're ready to load and not need any lube in the necks due to the dry tumble with rice after sizing. I get less than .001 TIR. OH, what what also helps a lot is my sizing die (a Forster FL die) has been honed so that it only reduces the neck to .002 below where I'll expand it to. Working the neck very little helps.

Thanks, that’s very helpful. I am using an expander ball in my sizing, and one worry I did have is lube is not getting inside the neck, which can cause issues in and of itself.

Do you tumble after annealing even with new cases? I haven’t tried that either but did just order some rice as I’ve heard that seams to be the best option.

 

[Bill Norris]

Thanks, that’s very helpful. I am using an expander ball in my sizing, and one worry I did have is lube is not getting inside the neck, which can cause issues in and of itself.

Do you tumble after annealing even with new cases? I haven’t tried that either but did just order some rice as I’ve heard that seams to be the best option.

Removing the expander ball from the re-sizing die may very well help. If the expander is to be used it should be in a separate function.

 

[cjc5062]

Not at all trying to be anything other than helpful but going back and re-reading your post at the top I don't see where you state that you have seriously doubled check your bench manners. Some of the most seemingly un-important aspects of rifle handling and bench attitude can definitely affect the target.

I have and know some could be human error for sure, as I’m by far not a perfect shooter. But I’m just trying to figure out what I’m doing incorrect that is giving me these runouts, regardless as to whether that translates to perfect groups. I enjoy trying to get these as perfect as possible. I’m sure it’s something simple or stupid that I’m over looking.

 

[Bill Norris]

I have and know some could be human error for sure, as I’m by far not a perfect shooter. But I’m just trying to figure out what I’m doing incorrect that is giving me these runouts, regardless as to whether that translates to perfect groups. I enjoy trying to get these as perfect as possible. I’m sure it’s something simple or stupid that I’m over looking.

Yea, sometimes it takes checking the routine and positioning as well.

 

[BoydAllen]

To be clear, not lubing when you are expanding necks can cause concentricity problems and if the lube is the best, it needs to be removed before loading. Since new brass is shorter at the shoulder than a chamber and smaller than your FL die in diameter, what you have in effect is a one piece neck die running a dry expander ball which is the absolute worst setup for concentricity. One thing that I tell new reloaders is to try doing it exactly the way that I tell them, first. Typically, guys seem to think that their inexperienced opinions are of some value, and that if they saw or read it on the internet it must be gospel.

 

[64Rambler]

 

[cjc5062]

To be clear, not lubing when you are expanding necks can cause concentricity problems and if the lube is the best, it needs to be removed before loading. Since new brass is shorter at the shoulder than a chamber and smaller than your FL die in diameter, what you have in effect is a one piece neck die running a dry expander ball which is the absolute worst setup for concentricity. One thing that I tell new reloaders is to try doing it exactly the way that I tell them, first. Typically, guys seem to think that their inexperienced opinions are of some value, and that if they saw or read it on the internet it must be gospel.

Really appreciate the help, I will give these a try.

Do you tumble new brass after annealing as well?

 

[R.Morehouse]

BoydAllen's advice on revisiting your runout after 2 firings is right on. If you're not uniforming necks, I think you may continue to have issues. Turning necks is a piece of cake. Be anal with your COAL, it matters.

Regards
Rick

 

[BoydAllen]

Really appreciate the help, I will give these a try.

Do you tumble new brass after annealing as well?

I don't anneal, although I have helped friends successfully get set up to do it, back before induction. I watched a video on your FL dies, I could be wrong but I do not know of anyone using those dies for top level competition. Shiny and expensive do not always do the best work. Back in the day, I did some comparison between using a one piece die with an expander ball, with the insides of the necks fully lubed, comparing the runout with cases that had bee sized in the same die without the expander and carefully expanded up with a mandrel and die, with lube. This was probably 30 years ago. Expanding with the mandrel with lube gave better concentricity. Using a dry expander gave terrible runout. I have written a number of articles about concentricity gauges, including a couple that were designed to straighten. I have done, and continue to do a lot of testing with sizing using a concentriciy gauge to evaluate the results.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Thanks, that’s very helpful. I am using an expander ball in my sizing, and one worry I did have is lube is not getting inside the neck, which can cause issues in and of itself.

No lube inside the neck can be an issue for sure, especially after annealing.

Do you tumble after annealing even with new cases?

I ALWAYS clean after annealing.

I never anneal virgin brass as they've already been factory annealed, so there's not really any point to it.

I haven’t tried that either but did just order some rice as I’ve heard that seams to be the best option.

Just be sure you're not using long grain rice as that'll really clog up a lot of the flash holes. Using medium grain rice works really well and no dust flying around.

 

[cjc5062]

Thanks guys for the help. I’m going to give these a try this weekend and will report back. Really appreciate all the feedback. Just trying to learn as best I can.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

The resizing process is where the runout comes from. You don't need high end stuff to keep runout at .0005 to .001 on the bearing surface. You just need to know how. I cant release that at this time. JMO

To the OP,.. THIS ^^^^ is,.. It ! Here's, My Answer,...
All my "Run-Out" issues, went AWAY when I started Using FORSTER Sizing Dies and Setting the Expander Ball to, the CORRECT Height,.. Per the Instructions ! Now .0015 to .002 is,.. the Max Run-Out of, ANY of, My Bullets.
I WON'T Build, a Rifle or, Replace a Barrel for, a Cartridge that, Forster DOESN'T make,.. Dies for.
( There May be others, just as Good,.. IDK of them, tho ! )

 

[Kracken McGraw]

To the OP,.. THIS ^^^^ is,.. It ! Here's, My Answer,...
All my "Run-Out" issues, went AWAY when I started Using FORSTER Sizing Dies and Setting the Expander Ball to, the CORRECT Height,.. Per the Instructions ! Now .0015 to .002 is,.. the Max Run-Out of, ANY of, My Bullets.
I WON'T Build, a Rifle or, Replace a Barrel for, a Cartridge that, Forster DOESN'T make,.. Dies for.
( There May be others, just as Good,.. IDK of them, tho ! )

I wish the OP would buy one of these Forster benchrest sizers and report back with his findings.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Totally agree 100%. The process in most cases is far more in control over runout than the tooling and equipment. BUT, seriously how much does it really matter in a precision correctly chambered rifle is the question ?

^^^^^^

 

[SKWERLZ]

Removing the expander ball from the re-sizing die may very well help. If the expander is to be used it should be in a separate function.

This
Pulling the expander out is the big culprit especially if the die sized the neck excessively,
Pushing the mandrel in seems to distort the case less.
Want awesome runout easy?
Get a Lee collet.

Honestly in most not sloppy, not oem chambers it seems to have far less effect.

I quit checking runout because it seems to be a rabbit hole full of poop.

 

[TTE]

As others have suggested and IMO, your brass prep is what will determine run out. After firing the brass, everything you do to the brass has to be the same each time. Lube, what you lube and how much lube, neck thickness, annealing, how you expand necks, dies etc .... it all has it's part to play

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Years ago, Watching my Elk Ammo Bullets, Roll across, the Top of my Desk with, .008 to .010 "Wobble" Made me want to,.. Throw Up !
And Years Ago,.. I FIXED,.. the Problem by buying ALL,.. Forster, Sizing Dies !

 

[Clancy]

I’ve got some special case lube for $600 an ounce. 3 ounce minimum.